Russian Invasion

AFCDorset said:
the new government supported attacks on ethnic Russians in the far southwest and thousands of civilians are reported to have died.
Click to expand...

That has always seemed a case of six of one and half a dozen of the other as despite the various Minsk agreements the Ukrainian forces and Russian Separatist forces have continued to go at each other ever since in a seemingly never ending cycle of violence. Either way it is now Russia that is attacking those that would identify themselves as Russian outside of that relatively small South Eastern corner. Putin has probably done more for the cause of Ukrainian Nationalism & unity in the last week than the Ukrainian government has achieved in the 9 years since the removal of Yanukovych.
 
But it won't stop with the Ukraine , he will want to bring the former states back under Soviet rule he's that power crazy
 
SteveYork said:
Sounds about the same as Owen Jones’s view.
Click to expand...
Who is Owen Jones?

These are very much my own views, filtered through my perception of what I think is happening. I am no supporter of war and not in the slightest bit pro-Putin but experience has taught me that these situations are more complex than they appear.
buz_not_buzz said:
That has always seemed a case of six of one and half a dozen of the other as despite the various Minsk agreements the Ukrainian forces and Russian Separatist forces have continued to go at each other ever since in a seemingly never ending cycle of violence. Either way it is now Russia that is attacking those that would identify themselves as Russian outside of that relatively small South Eastern corner. Putin has probably done more for the cause of Ukrainian Nationalism & unity in the last week than the Ukrainian government has achieved in the 9 years since the removal of Yanukovych.
Click to expand...
I agree that there is very definitely fault on both sides in the physical conflict, ethnic Russians and Ukrainians have been in conflict in that area practically forever. However the story of a relatively small number of separatists being suppressed by much more powerful state forces as has happened in recent years is not something that the media are interested in telling.

There are much bigger geo-political reasons for Russia to want to control/occupy Ukraine, obvious stuff in the main and the western inspired regime change in 2014 shifted the balance very firmly from east to west. Rightly or wrongly, Russia want to redress that.
 
AFCDorset said:
Who is Owen Jones?

These are very much my own views, filtered through my perception of what I think is happening. I am no supporter of war and not in the slightest bit pro-Putin but experience has taught me that these situations are more complex than they appear.

I agree that there is very definitely fault on both sides in the physical conflict, ethnic Russians and Ukrainians have been in conflict in that area practically forever. However the story of a relatively small number of separatists being suppressed by much more powerful state forces as has happened in recent years is not something that the media are interested in telling.

There are much bigger geo-political reasons for Russia to want to control/occupy Ukraine, obvious stuff in the main and the western inspired regime change in 2014 shifted the balance very firmly from east to west. Rightly or wrongly, Russia want to redress that.
Click to expand...
What I find most disturbing is the nature of Putin himself .
A man so depraved and utterly without conscience that his behaviour goes far beyond the understanding of rational human beings .

The certainty that no one would risk armageddon and he would never go that far does not apply in his case.
 
Foxgolfer said:
What I find most disturbing is the nature of Putin himself .
A man so depraved and utterly without conscience that his behaviour goes far beyond the understanding of rational human beings .

The certainty that no one would risk armageddon and he would never go that far does not apply in his case.
Click to expand...
Even in Russia there is a process to go through before the button is pushed. You would hope that somewhere along the chain, somebody would stop it from happening even if Putin wanted to do it. But 'hoping' doesn't exactly provide the reassurance most of us would like.
 
AFCDorset said:
However the story of a relatively small number of separatists being suppressed by much more powerful state forces as has happened in recent years is not something that the media are interested in telling
Click to expand...

I am sure someone might point out that up until last week in the run up to the Invasion when Russia formally recognised the regions in question the separatist forces were unquestionably within the borders of the "powerful state" whose forces were engaged there (if there was an armed insurgency in Cornwall would the rest of the UK - or at least England - stand by and do nothing?). The Minsk agreements were supposed to end the conflict & protect life in the region (of both those - the majority - who identified as Russian & those who identified as Ukrainian or who didn't care one way or the other). They failed. As for the media, it just gets bored of reporting when something becomes the status quo (or I am sure would argue reflects a boredom in its viewers/readership) & it quickly moves on (the odd piece revisiting it aside - and there have been such pieces).

But of course, protecting those in that particular region was, as you said earlier, merely a pretext anyway for the current conflict. And don't get me wrong, I understand a desire by Russia to not have NATO in Ukraine whilst vestiges of the Cold war remain as it & "the west" continue to define themselves/ourselves against each other. And it is that latter point that is at the heart of why what is happening now goes beyond an immediate desire for bolstering the security & influence in Ukraine of Russia otherwise weakened in its view by the events of 2014. It has become a deliberate attempt to turn back the clock to a time where Russia was & felt itself the foremost non-US player on the world stage and plays on Western narratives that have continued to emphasise an "other" nature of Russia that most Russians themselves probably do not recognise. Furthermore, it will be something that will be popular with some in Russia (a quick shout out again to my father-in-law at this point) who have felt the waning influence of the country, of a reduced significance in the world.
 
Last edited:
ClaphamFox said:
Even in Russia there is a process to go through before the button is pushed. You would hope that somewhere along the chain, somebody would stop it from happening even if Putin wanted to do it. But 'hoping' doesn't exactly provide the reassurance most of us would like.
Click to expand...

You're right. It doesn't provide the reassurance most of us would like! But I admire your confidence in the process & there being somebody to stop it.
 
buz_not_buzz said:
I am sure someone might point out that up until last week in the run up to the Invasion when Russia formally recognised the regions in question the separatist forces were unquestionably within the borders of the "powerful state" whose forces were engaged there (if there was an armed insurgency in Cornwall would the rest of the UK - or at least England - stand by and do nothing?). The Minsk agreements were supposed to end the conflict & protect life in the region (of both those - the majority - who identified as Russian & those who identified as Ukrainian or who didn't care one way or the other). They failed. As for the media, it just gets bored of reporting when something becomes the status quo (or I am sure would argue reflects a boredom in its viewers/readership) & it quickly moves on (the odd piece revisiting it aside - and there have been such pieces).

But of course, protecting those in that particular region was, as you said earlier, merely a pretext anyway for the current conflict. And don't get me wrong, I understand a desire by Russia to not have NATO in Ukraine whilst vestiges of the Cold war remain as it & "the west" continue to define themselves/ourselves against each other. And it is that latter point that is at the heart of why what is happening now goes beyond an immediate desire for bolstering the security & influence in Ukraine of Russia otherwise weakened in its view by the events of 2014. It has become a deliberate attempt to turn back the clock to a time where Russia was & felt itself the foremost non-US player on the world stage and plays on Western narratives that have continued to emphasise an "other" nature of Russia that most Russians themselves probably do not recognise. Furthermore, it will be something that will be popular with some in Russia (a quick shout out again to my father-in-law at this point) who have felt the waning influence of the country, of a reduced significance in the world.
Click to expand...
I think this is key. Putin has never made a secret of his seething resentment at the break-up of the Soviet Union. He was a KGB officer in the USSR and longs for a return to that world. He has openly and repeatedly denied that Ukraine is a real country - just yesterday he made a speech in which he said that he will never waver in his belief that Ukrainians and Russians are 'one people' (ie, they should be one country). The fact that Ukraine does not want to be part of Russia any more does not matter to him - they've just been 'brainwashed' into wanting more freedoms, better human rights, higher standards of living etc, he claims.

Ukraine's desire to join NATO is a tertiary issue - an irritation to Russia, sure, but it not the primary cause of the current situation. At the heart of all this is Putin's desperation to turn back the clock and rebuild as much of the USSR as he possibly can before he dies. He wants it to be his legacy - and his obsession with achieving it has plunged the world into chaos.
 
If you get chance listen to Al Stewart...Roads to Moscow on YouTube..
Despite a succession of Leaders the paranoia from the Stalin led regime of WW2 still exists.
What Stalin did to his own people, and the troops that fought to defend Russia, mirrors Hitlers treatment of Jews.
Putin is not better than either.
 
evingtonfox said:
If you get chance listen to Al Stewart...Roads to Moscow on YouTube..
Despite a succession of Leaders the paranoia from the Stalin led regime of WW2 still exists.
What Stalin did to his own people, and the troops that fought to defend Russia, mirrors Hitlers treatment of Jews.
Putin is not better than either.
Click to expand...
Just heard a former British general say Putin thinks he’s fighting the Nazis .In his head it’s 1942 .
Sadly that’s exactly what we are looking at on our TVs . It’s mind blowing
 
buz_not_buzz said:
I am sure someone might point out that up until last week in the run up to the Invasion when Russia formally recognised the regions in question the separatist forces were unquestionably within the borders of the "powerful state" whose forces were engaged there (if there was an armed insurgency in Cornwall would the rest of the UK - or at least England - stand by and do nothing?). The Minsk agreements were supposed to end the conflict & protect life in the region (of both those - the majority - who identified as Russian & those who identified as Ukrainian or who didn't care one way or the other). They failed. As for the media, it just gets bored of reporting when something becomes the status quo (or I am sure would argue reflects a boredom in its viewers/readership) & it quickly moves on (the odd piece revisiting it aside - and there have been such pieces).

But of course, protecting those in that particular region was, as you said earlier, merely a pretext anyway for the current conflict. And don't get me wrong, I understand a desire by Russia to not have NATO in Ukraine whilst vestiges of the Cold war remain as it & "the west" continue to define themselves/ourselves against each other. And it is that latter point that is at the heart of why what is happening now goes beyond an immediate desire for bolstering the security & influence in Ukraine of Russia otherwise weakened in its view by the events of 2014. It has become a deliberate attempt to turn back the clock to a time where Russia was & felt itself the foremost non-US player on the world stage and plays on Western narratives that have continued to emphasise an "other" nature of Russia that most Russians themselves probably do not recognise. Furthermore, it will be something that will be popular with some in Russia (a quick shout out again to my father-in-law at this point) who have felt the waning influence of the country, of a reduced significance in the world.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the considered view.

I have no love of Russia or Putin but I find the relentless pro Ukraine rhetoric to be little more than propaganda, so I do try and seek out a more 'balanced' view by trying to look at both sides.

Politically and militarily the 'West' have been pushing eastwards for most of the last 30 years, getting the Baltic States into Nato was big and achieved at a time when Russia was weak and the US still very much the world power.

Russia is much stronger now and the west obsessed with other things so this is just re-addressing the balance as far as they are concerned, 'realpolitic' writ large. Very messy on the ground and horrible for those caught up in it, desperate times.
 
I find it hard to believe you can consider ‘two sides’ in this case .

However Putin may feel threatened by an independent Ukraine, due to his irrational paranoia,there is no two sides to genocide .

I thought you were all for countries determining their own sovereignty?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Eggs66 said:
I wonder if perhaps China might take this as the opportunity to step up onto the world stage and act as peacemaker. Whilst one can see Putin being bloody-minded towards efforts from the west to find solutions, he might be more open to pressure from his chum in the east. Otherwise it is hard to see any solution that isn't deeply unpleasant and long-lasting.
Click to expand...
The world is totally buggered if we all start to think China is decent. I think they’re a bigger threat than Russia.
 
DagenhamFox said:
The world is totally buggered if we all start to think China is decent. I think they’re a bigger threat than Russia.
Click to expand...
It might at least give him pause if China who are about his only “ friend” at the moment tell him to back off
 
There’s a theory going around that he’s bloated from steroids caused by a crippling cancer hence the table distance thing.

Could be a man on his last legs lashing out for a legacy.

The same talk about different parts of the nuclear arsenal being kept apart and under surveillance and if he tells them to get on with it and put them together he’s taken out.

Also talk of Russian top brass tipping off the build up of troops on the border at the start of the issue.

Probably all bollocks but
 
Buz has got it right. We have moved on from two major blocs of influence American and Russian.
As the SU (code for Russian Empire) collapsed, NATO (code for American Empire} seized its chance to move into former SU territory.
This was not difficult as states, never happy under Russian rule, rushed to ensure no return to that status.
Putin 's thinking, rooted in those former days, planned a 'no further' strategy.
His dictator status ensured that this approach was never going to be challenged and he has overreached as all dictators do.
He is not mad, but paranoid, his thinking is logical (to him) and in the great tradition of Russia and its fixation with one man rule he intends to take his place in that history...

And this is where we are.
 
evingtonfox said:
If you get chance listen to Al Stewart...Roads to Moscow on YouTube..
Despite a succession of Leaders the paranoia from the Stalin led regime of WW2 still exists.
What Stalin did to his own people, and the troops that fought to defend Russia, mirrors Hitlers treatment of Jews.
Putin is not better than either.
Click to expand...
This could be The Year Of The Twat
 
This thread is really interesting. It purportedly shows a analysis of the situation in Ukraine from an insider at the FSB. I can't verify its authenticity, but it rings true - and seems to show an astonishing level of chaos and disorganisation behind the scenes in Moscow, where the focus of those around Putin is to tell what he wants to hear rather than the truth...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1500301348780199937
 
ClaphamFox said:
This thread is really interesting. It purportedly shows a analysis of the situation in Ukraine from an insider at the FSB. I can't verify its authenticity, but it rings true - and seems to show an astonishing level of chaos and disorganisation behind the scenes in Moscow, where the focus of those around Putin is to tell what he wants to hear rather than the truth...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1500301348780199937
Click to expand...
As you say not verified but it is fascinating .
The most interesting bit for me was where he compares Russia to Nazi Germany in 1941. They start a war they have no chance of winning in the long term .
 
Good interview with Col. Bob Stewart on Sky . He felt Russian soldiers morale was very low and morale was the “ flame “ which keeps an attack going .
Less optimistic was his feeling that when Putin realises occupation is no longer an option he’ll just obliterate Ukrainian cities with ever increasing lethality of weaponry .

NATO must then decide how far before enough is enough - God help us .
 
Just realised this is in the wrong section. Sorry guys for not moving it sooner. Hope it didn't disturb anyone in the general chat.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top