Real life scenario...Tier4 restrictions

sabredunce said:
Why do you constantly compare apples to oranges? The strength of conviction in an argument has nothing to do with the validity of the subject matter. Please engage in a round of self-criticism, Dorset.

You'll be stronger for it.
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Dorset has to get the word Marxist into at least one in three posts. We could be discussion apples and oranges and guaranteed one of them will be a Marxist.
 
Really, I like the guy - but I'm a red and I read his posts and think - we're doing all that? Wow, that's pretty good.
 
sabredunce said:
Why do you constantly compare apples to oranges? The strength of conviction in an argument has nothing to do with the validity of the subject matter. Please engage in a round of self-criticism, Dorset.

You'll be stronger for it.
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Morning SD, you are up bright and early.

To be honest, my comparison is not really about strength of conviction, I have no real issue with that. There are people, both private and in the public eye with whom I disagree fundamentally but respect. Strongly held beliefs that they hold and in some cases live by is not the issue.

The problem to me is that some people who hold different views, usually though not always lefties, insist that you (or me) accept and live by these views as well and perhaps more importantly abuse you verbally and physically if you do not.

They invariably use tactics from the Alinsky playbook, personal abuse and projection being the most common and in some cases this goes further into physical violence. These are the methods of marxism being applied to individual relationships, usually little more than name calling but sometimes much worse as groups like Momentum, BLM, Antifa etc prove on a regular basis.
 
AFCDorset said:
Morning SD, you are up bright and early.

To be honest, my comparison is not really about strength of conviction, I have no real issue with that. There are people, both private and in the public eye with whom I disagree fundamentally but respect. Strongly held beliefs that they hold and in some cases live by is not the issue.

The problem to me is that some people who hold different views, usually though not always lefties, insist that you (or me) accept and live by these views as well and perhaps more importantly abuse you verbally and physically if you do not.

They invariably use tactics from the Alinsky playbook, personal abuse and projection being the most common and in some cases this goes further into physical violence. These are the methods of marxism being applied to individual relationships, usually little more than name calling but sometimes much worse as groups like Momentum, BLM, Antifa etc prove on a regular basis.
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Here, there’s only really one person that ends up resorting to personal abuse & wild accusations. Whether this person is genuine in their thoughts or just taking the piss, is anyone’s guess.

I’d say in most instances, the majority here are grown-up enough to discuss, disagree (if that’s the outcome) & move on without having to resort to childish name-calling. The latter tends to divert from the point of the conversation, which after some good points made by various folk, is a huge shame.
 
Richardvanles said:
Dorset has to get the word Marxist into at least one in three posts. We could be discussion apples and oranges and guaranteed one of them will be a Marxist.
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Richardvanles said:
Two on the bounce!
👍🏻 You're on a roll 😄
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Morning. Three now, I'll see if I can keep it up...👍

Sadly that is because 'social' marxism using identity politics (intersectionality, but I also get off for using that term) as it's main weapon has become endemic in British life, it has become even more pervasive than political and economic marxism.

Say anything that is against the leftist, common purpose narrative and you become an unperson. You are 'cancelled', may loose your job and if you are in public life, pretty much everything else as well.

I find all of this rather painful and sad, it rarely affects me in a personal way, though I could tell stories of Mrs AFC and her experiences of 'diversity training' in the NHS, but I think it is nasty and a lot of otherwise sensible and sound people are accepting this way of life without much thought.
 
AFCDorset said:
Morning SD, you are up bright and early.

To be honest, my comparison is not really about strength of conviction, I have no real issue with that. There are people, both private and in the public eye with whom I disagree fundamentally but respect. Strongly held beliefs that they hold and in some cases live by is not the issue.

The problem to me is that some people who hold different views, usually though not always lefties, insist that you (or me) accept and live by these views as well and perhaps more importantly abuse you verbally and physically if you do not.

They invariably use tactics from the Alinsky playbook, personal abuse and projection being the most common and in some cases this goes further into physical violence. These are the methods of marxism being applied to individual relationships, usually little more than name calling but sometimes much worse as groups like Momentum, BLM, Antifa etc prove on a regular basis.
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Different time zone.

The Alinsky playbook is about as relevant as the 'Ginsberg poem'. That's an obscure reference. You're confusing a tactic with a set of theory. What Momentum, BLM and antifa have to do with Marxism or communism is beyond me.

Their basis is egotism, which by definition is anti-social behavior, Marx and Lenin both raged at their programme and called for their political annihilation. I wonder if you actually know what Marxism is?
 
AFCDorset said:
The problem to me is that some people who hold different views, usually though not always lefties, insist that you (or me) accept and live by these views as well and perhaps more importantly abuse you verbally and physically if you do not
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Exactly the same can be said of people who I would consider right-wing. It's not a left or right issue. There's people left, right and centre who are like this.
 
sabredunce said:
Different time zone.

The Alinsky playbook is about as relevant as the 'Ginsberg poem'. That's an obscure reference. You're confusing a tactic with a set of theory. What Momentum, BLM and antifa have to do with Marxism or communism is beyond me.

Their basis is egotism, which by definition is anti-social behavior, Marx and Lenin both raged at their programme and called for their political annihilation. I wonder if you actually know what Marxism is?
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It is a difficult and somewhat awkward argument. The 'marxism' of Marx and Lenin is pretty much obsolete in the west. What we are grappling with is really the confluence of 60's post modernism and neo-marxism in a social context.

I am not a political theorist as I am sure you can tell, I consider myself a pragmatist looking at and commenting on the way modern leftist politics are, to my mind, wrecking this and other countries in the western world.

I refer to the Alinsky book simply because it is so true, bully and intimidate, abuse and threaten the messenger, accuse others of the things you yourself are doing, all commonplace in todays 'politics'.

In my adult lifetime the Overton Window has shifted so far to the left that, in terms of my 40 year old perceptions, the Conservative party is no longer remotely conservative, it is a left of centre Blairite/social Democratic Party that compounds its sins by being totally incompetent.

Finally, Momentum, BLM and Antifa are authoritarian hard left, anti democratic organisations that follow the modern social marxist norms to foster divisiveness and conflict. You may well see that differently, but that is only because you are looking through a very different section of the window.
 
The only part of the shift of the Overton Window to the left that I can agree with is that the current Government are incompetent.
 
Of course SF.

The Overton Window does not shift itself, it is the (misguided) views of people like yourself, currently in the majority (among the politically active) that cause that shift.

Old school conservatives, like myself, who believe in personal independence, taking control of your own affairs, free speech, free trade etc, etc, need to increase our numbers and influence in order to shift the window back towards sanity.
 
AFCDorset said:
It is a difficult and somewhat awkward argument. The 'marxism' of Marx and Lenin is pretty much obsolete in the west. What we are grappling with is really the confluence of 60's post modernism and neo-marxism in a social context.

I am not a political theorist as I am sure you can tell, I consider myself a pragmatist looking at and commenting on the way modern leftist politics are, to my mind, wrecking this and other countries in the western world.
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The Marxism of Marx and Lenin never really took off in the west at all. What goes on now, is a product of 'bourgeois liberalism' and a direct offspring of capitalism . 'Left' politics now, is based on 'identity politics', which really took off in the late 60s and early 70s on American college campuses and gave rise to political correctness.
What you consider 'left', is your own Frankenstein monster - not a product of Marx. Richardvanless touched on this a while ago.

You're a tough one, when you first started posting, I thought you were a Von Mises/Hayek crackpot. Maybe a Keynesian. You keep your cards pretty close to your chest 👍
 
He's just winding you up.

Already confessed this enough times.

It's good fun though and even better when the counter wind-up is missed.
 
Morning SD, bit of a late start for me this morning. Take no notice of sixthswan, he enjoys trying to wind me up.

To be honest I have never really been at all 'political' so in some respects I am learning 'on the job'. Classic left wing politics of the 60s and 70s rather passed me by, though I did get involved in a bit of street fighting against the NF/BNP of that era.

I find a lot of the distinctions difficult, Marxists, Trotskyites and the classic divisions of socialism are really not something that I have given much thought to, so I might sometimes get my terminology wrong. in any case, I think we have a serious new problem.

I am thinking of what has developed in more modern times, it may well have started in the American colleges but it has its roots in 60s post modernisms, cultural relativism and what I term Neo-marxism. It involves intersectionality in all its aspects, racism, gender politics. political correctness and, for me, most importantly, moral relativism.

It is this kind of activism that troubles me most, I never really had to get involved with it at all during my working life so my interest now is somewhat academic, well it was until the last year or two, when the destructive elements of these practices became seriously apparent.
 
AFCDorset said:
Morning SD, bit of a late start for me this morning. Take no notice of sixthswan, he enjoys trying to wind me up.

To be honest I have never really been at all 'political' so in some respects I am learning 'on the job'. Classic left wing politics of the 60s and 70s rather passed me by, though I did get involved in a bit of street fighting against the NF/BNP of that era.

I find a lot of the distinctions difficult, Marxists, Trotskyites and the classic divisions of socialism are really not something that I have given much thought to, so I might sometimes get my terminology wrong. in any case, I think we have a serious new problem.

I am thinking of what has developed in more modern times, it may well have started in the American colleges but it has its roots in 60s post modernisms, cultural relativism and what I term Neo-marxism. It involves intersectionality in all its aspects, racism, gender politics. political correctness and, for me, most importantly, moral relativism.

It is this kind of activism that troubles me most, I never really had to get involved with it at all during my working life so my interest now is somewhat academic, well it was until the last year or two, when the destructive elements of these practices became seriously apparent.
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A question for you then. Seeing as you have been involved in action against NF/BNP, why do you seem to have a problem with the people that are lumped together and labelled Antifa or BLM? I don't see how being against Fascism can be such an issue, unless you happen to be a Fascist (not you personally, I should probably have written "unless one happens to be a Fascist" but that's posh).
 
Politics of the individual happens across the board.

You have the Thatcherite Randism advocates, who aren't very different to Relativists.

In the end, both schools of thought are about the self.
 
Club_B00k_Crutchless said:
A question for you then. Seeing as you have been involved in action against NF/BNP, why do you seem to have a problem with the people that are lumped together and labelled Antifa or BLM? I don't see how being against Fascism can be such an issue, unless you happen to be a Fascist (not you personally, I should probably have written "unless one happens to be a Fascist" but that's posh).
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Never saw the NF demand black folk kneel in front of them and give a white power salute...
 
Club_B00k_Crutchless said:
A question for you then. Seeing as you have been involved in action against NF/BNP, why do you seem to have a problem with the people that are lumped together and labelled Antifa or BLM? I don't see how being against Fascism can be such an issue, unless you happen to be a Fascist (not you personally, I should probably have written "unless one happens to be a Fascist" but that's posh).
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Serious answer, I do not consider Fascism to be left or right, it is massive state totalitarianism and can be a function of the authoritarian left just as much as the authoritarian right.

Hence, although they are of the left (at their core I think they are racist anti capitalist marxists), I consider them to be actual, real fascist organisations. Antifa are the lefts equivalent of the Stürm Abteilung and should should be resisted at all costs, BLM are just race baiters.
sixthswan said:
Politics of the individual happens across the board.

You have the Thatcherite Randism advocates, who aren't very different to Relativists.

In the end, both schools of thought are about the self.
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As I said earlier, I am very new to the politics of the left, particularly the theoretical stuff. You'll have to explain.
 
Richardvanles said:
Jesus bookclub, you asked me who does this and I answered. Quite emphatically in fact. But just dismiss my replies with an excuse for their behaviour 👍🏻
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I'm not excusing anyone's behaviour.

I asked Dorset why he had a problem with Antifa and you indulged in a bit of whatabouttery (dog-whistles rubberdoug) and responded "Never saw the NF demand black folk kneel in front of them and give a white power salute."
Should we not bother opposing Fascism because some idiots do what you posted? They do the cause no favours.
 
AFCDorset said:
Use smaller words that I might understand.

(No. I do not mean reduce the font size...😉 )
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I've used your words. The only new one was Randism.

Which is Objectivism; that is often seen as a counter to the moral relativism, that you mentioned.
 
Club_B00k_Crutchless said:
I'm not excusing anyone's behaviour.

I asked Dorset why he had a problem with Antifa and you indulged in a bit of whatabouttery (dog-whistles rubberdoug) and responded "Never saw the NF demand black folk kneel in front of them and give a white power salute."
Should we not bother opposing Fascism because some idiots do what you posted? They do the cause no favours.
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Of course we should oppose fascism. If you don't oppose fascism we end up in scenarios where the general public end up wearing muzzles because they are told it's good for them.
I have no issue with the original message of black lives matter. Sorry maybe I should have said I fully support the original message of black lives matter. My objections are it is being funded by the very establishment that has engrained in our culture over the years that somehow black lives don't matter as much.
I believe they are being manipulated by the neo capitalists as they have their own war with the acceptable capitalists that we've grown to hate.
It's all about division and compliance, just look around.
 
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