Accept trans gender folk as they are.

ClaphamFox said:
Lots of women prefer to be segregated from men in certain situations for reasons of privacy and safety - changing rooms, hospital wards, shelters for abuse survivors, prisons. That's not because they believe that any man who enters those spaces is going to assault them - it's that they want the reassurance of knowing that cannot happen because there are no men in that space. Is it impossible for you to understand why a woman might not want to get undressed in front of a man she doesn't know, irrespective of whether he poses a threat or not? Or why a female rape victim might want her support group to be free of anybody with a penis? Are you really that obtuse?!

Transgender people are not being demonised or blamed for the actions of others - they are just being asked to follow the same rules and conventions as everybody else. But rather than accept this, some militant trans rights activists are demanding that special exemptions be made for them and insisting that any women who object to their presence should just shut up and accept it.

It comes down to a simple question. Whose rights are more important- women who want certain spaces to be kept for themselves, or men who aggressively demand access to those spaces? I'm with the women on this; you're clearly with the men. I suspect you're in the minority.

The transgender rights movement is misogyny on stilts.
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That reply is exactly the reason why I don't post on here as much as I used to. The complete lack of nuance in any discussion.

"If you don't agree with me on X, then you must support Y"

You read my replies and write that because I don't share your view in it's entirety then I clearly don't support women, that I don't think they should be allowed to object, that I think they should "shut up", and that I don't understand their concerns. Accuse me of being obtuse for something I've not even suggested. Say I support aggressive men. Ffs. I expect that kind of discourse from others, but am really surprised to get it from you.

I thought I was clear. Maybe I wasn't. Nothing you accuse me of supporting is true.

It is possible to believe women are allowed safe spaces (although are there any truly safe spaces from predators?), and to believe that the vulnerable absolutely deserve protection AND I can believe trans people are being bullied and victimised. It's an opinion, not a fact.

"Transgender people are not being demonised" I disagree. Read the posts on this thread, connecting trans with paedophilia...the oldest trick in the book.

To repeat my point , which (big letters) IS NOT related to your safe space argument...

Some men are really fucking horrible.
Blaming all men for their actions is not right.

Some football fans are really fucking horrible.
Blaming all football fans for their actions is not right.

Some trans people are really fucking horrible.
Blaming all trans people for their actions is not right.

It looks to me like another minority group getting kicked, based on the actions of presumably a tiny minority ( I'm still hoping to see some data). in my time on this planet I've seen it with blacks, with gays, Jews, Asians, more recently eastern Europeans , Muslims, and all the other 'others'...and now I see it again. And nothing I've said means I support the things you accuse me of.
 
Some men are really fucking horrible.
Blaming all men for their actions is not right.
Not all men are blamed but all men accept that they should steer clear from ladies toilets and changing rooms.

Some football fans are really fucking horrible.
Blaming all football fans for their actions is not right.
No one’s blaming all football fans but they accept that they are inconvenienced by being kettled and marched to the football ground, segregated from the opposition fans. Held back after the game.

Some trans people are really fucking horrible.
Blaming all trans people for their actions is not right.
No one’s blaming all trans people but their selfish arrogance knows no bounds. Their demands COULD be open to abuse and put women and kids at risk. That’s the only issue I have.
 
Adumass said:
That reply is exactly the reason why I don't post on here as much as I used to. The complete lack of nuance in any discussion.

"If you don't agree with me on X, then you must support Y"

You read my replies and write that because I don't share your view in it's entirety then I clearly don't support women, that I don't think they should be allowed to object, that I think they should "shut up", and that I don't understand their concerns. Accuse me of being obtuse for something I've not even suggested. Say I support aggressive men. Ffs. I expect that kind of discourse from others, but am really surprised to get it from you.

I thought I was clear. Maybe I wasn't. Nothing you accuse me of supporting is true.

It is possible to believe women are allowed safe spaces (although are there any truly safe spaces from predators?), and to believe that the vulnerable absolutely deserve protection AND I can believe trans people are being bullied and victimised. It's an opinion, not a fact.

"Transgender people are not being demonised" I disagree. Read the posts on this thread, connecting trans with paedophilia...the oldest trick in the book.

To repeat my point , which (big letters) IS NOT related to your safe space argument...

Some men are really fucking horrible.
Blaming all men for their actions is not right.

Some football fans are really fucking horrible.
Blaming all football fans for their actions is not right.

Some trans people are really fucking horrible.
Blaming all trans people for their actions is not right.

It looks to me like another minority group getting kicked, based on the actions of presumably a tiny minority ( I'm still hoping to see some data). in my time on this planet I've seen it with blacks, with gays, Jews, Asians, more recently eastern Europeans , Muslims, and all the other 'others'...and now I see it again. And nothing I've said means I support the things you accuse me of.
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The discussion further up the thread was about whether men who are transgender should be able to access female spaces. This was your response:

“Is there any reliable data available to show that attacks by trans men in 'safe spaces' is a genuine thing, over and above attacks by non-trans men in similar settings? Or is it a case of cunts just being cunts, and dog whistling?”

Judging from these words, I don’t think it was unreasonable to assume you thought that trans men should be allowed in ‘safe spaces’. That seemed to be the implication. But thanks for confirming that you do, in fact, believe that women should be allowed safe spaces - that’s a useful clarification.

This is often the way this debate occurs on social media. Somebody will say they don’t believe men should access women’s spaces, then somebody else will respond with a vague point about trans people being ‘demonised’ but pointedly refuse to address the question at hand. One side is debating a specific, real-world question and the other responds with a general sentiment.

If all transgender people wanted was to be allowed to dress as they choose without being discriminated against, hardly anybody would object. However, some transgender activists are arguing, very aggressively, that they be allowed to access women’s spaces and sports. That’s why this debate is occurring. It’s a very specific question that unfortunately cannot be resolved by warm sentiment and a desire for everybody to be nice to each other.
 
I've seen this played out in real life a number of times. The last time, I thought the girls complaining about the trans teenager using their toilet were just being nasty. Then I listened to them and really thought about it.
For some, who were shy types, they found it intimidating having a Silence of the Lambs lookalike waiting outside of the cubicle. For others, the fact that he, she, they was a prostitute, put them off sharing a toilet seat with 'him'.
The only solution would be separate bogs, but our school can't supply a third one.
 
ClaphamFox said:
The discussion further up the thread was about whether men who are transgender should be able to access female spaces. This was your response:

“Is there any reliable data available to show that attacks by trans men in 'safe spaces' is a genuine thing, over and above attacks by non-trans men in similar settings? Or is it a case of cunts just being cunts, and dog whistling?”

Judging from these words, I don’t think it was unreasonable to assume you thought that trans men should be allowed in ‘safe spaces’. That seemed to be the implication. But thanks for confirming that you do, in fact, believe that women should be allowed safe spaces - that’s a useful clarification.

This is often the way this debate occurs on social media. Somebody will say they don’t believe men should access women’s spaces, then somebody else will respond with a vague point about trans people being ‘demonised’ but pointedly refuse to address the question at hand. One side is debating a specific, real-world question and the other responds with a general sentiment.

If all transgender people wanted was to be allowed to dress as they choose without being discriminated against, hardly anybody would object. However, some transgender activists are arguing, very aggressively, that they be allowed to access women’s spaces and sports. That’s why this debate is occurring. It’s a very specific question that unfortunately cannot be resolved by warm sentiment and a desire for everybody to be nice to each other.
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ClaphamFox has produced the best series of posts and responses that I have read on here.

The issue of 'gender reassignment' is and equally (if not more) worrying aspect of the 'trans' debate. Children being given puberty blocking drugs and having radical surgery is a scandal (as also covered by CF as I recall)
 
Pen4 said:
ClaphamFox has produced the best series of posts and responses that I have read on here.

The issue of 'gender reassignment' is and equally (if not more) worrying aspect of the 'trans' debate. Children being given puberty blocking drugs and having radical surgery is a scandal (as also covered by CF as I recall)
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Yes. We haven’t really got into the gender reassignment aspect, but I agree it is deeply sinister and disturbing.
 
Club_B00k_Crutchless said:
Hardly anybody?
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I have no problem whatsoever with people of any age dressing how they want or calling themselves what they want. Gender stereotypes are tedious - good luck to those who don’t want to conform to them. But yes, I believe that giving puberty blockers and performing irreversible gender reassignment surgery on vulnerable young people who may just be going through a temporary crisis of identity is very sinister and disturbing.
 
ClaphamFox said:
I have no problem whatsoever with people of any age dressing how they want or calling themselves what they want. Gender stereotypes are tedious - good luck to those who don’t want to conform to them. But yes, I believe that giving puberty blockers and performing irreversible gender reassignment surgery on vulnerable young people who may just be going through a temporary crisis of identity is very sinister and disturbing.
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What's sinister about it? As I mentioned previously, they don't go to their GP and get puberty blocker subscriptions and booked in for surgery. They have to live as their identified gender, have counselling and psychotherapy. No-one is forced to take medication or undergo surgery.
 
Club_B00k_Crutchless said:
What's sinister about it? As I mentioned previously, they don't go to their GP and get puberty blocker subscriptions and booked in for surgery. They have to live as their identified gender, have counselling and psychotherapy. No-one is forced to take medication or undergo surgery.
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If they've got a cock they should use the gents, it's fucking simple.
 
Club_B00k_Crutchless said:
So what happens if they're in the gent's toilet and they bump into a lovely, easy-going, open-minded person like yourself or Pen4? Maybe one who's not as kind and peace loving as you?
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I wouldn't care. Not all men are anti-trans, most people couldn't give a fuck, and perhaps they need to deal with those awkward moments rather than putting them on innocent young girls or women.
 
Club_B00k_Crutchless said:
So what happens if they're in the gent's toilet and they bump into a lovely, easy-going, open-minded person like yourself or Pen4? Maybe one who's not as kind and peace loving as you?
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So what happens if the go into the ladies toilet and bump into a mother and daughter who feel genuinely upset and embarrassed by it and the trans gender isn’t open minded and peace loving?
 
Women should be inclusive to all of their diverse sisters. If they aren't, it's because the patriarchal society has blocked them from being real women.
I'd ban the genetic women and hand over the toilet to the trans community.
 
Club_B00k_Crutchless said:
If they use the cubicle how will they know?
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Because the majority of them look like a bloke in a dress. Why don't they just use the cubicle in the men's and leave the women to their privacy? Why are you more for protecting trans fellas in dresses than innocent women who just want to use the loo, get changed whatever without a man with a cock eying them up?
 
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jackieguaccamo said:
Because the majority of them look like a bloke in a dress. Why don't they just use the cubicle in the men's and leave the women to their privacy? Why are you more for protecting trans fella's in dresses than innocent women who just want to use the loo, get changed whatever without a man with a cock eying them up?
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because hes a tranny himself.
 
Club_B00k_Crutchless said:
If they use the cubicle how will they know?
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They will potentially see them walk in. How crass are you making ridiculous statements like that. Women will use the toilets to sort themselves out at certain parts of the month. Now admittedly I don’t go in womens toilets often but over the years I’ve had to go in them for various reasons due to work. (The last time was about a month ago when some, presumably Muslim woman had stood in the seat for a dump and somehow missed and curled one out on the floor) each cubicle has a utensil to dispose of their used tampons but I’ve also seen them outside the cubicles in the communal area. I’m sure some women would find it embarrassing to be placing their used tampons in the communal box in front of some bloke with a dress on.
To solve both issues trans folk can choose to use the urinals or the cubicles in the gents toilet. It’s about compromise and understanding how all party’s feel about it. I guess a trans bloke doesn’t want to be hoisting his dress up to have a slash so he can go in the cubicles provided.
I would also say the other way ‘round. A trans woman should use the cubicles in the womens toilet to do their business.
In no way is it infringing on their rights any more than me not being allowed in the ladies toilet.
 
Club_B00k_Crutchless said:
What's sinister about it? As I mentioned previously, they don't go to their GP and get puberty blocker subscriptions and booked in for surgery. They have to live as their identified gender, have counselling and psychotherapy. No-one is forced to take medication or undergo surgery.
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What’s sinister about is that anybody who believes they were born in the wrong body, and that they need to mutilate themselves to feel better, is almost certainly suffering from a mental health condition. Such people need to be treated with kindness and compassion, but that does not mean they should be encouraged to have drastic surgeries that will render them infertile and very likely lead to lifelong health problems.

Increasing numbers of people who’ve had gender reassignment surgery are coming out and saying they profoundly regret it. The stories are so heartbreaking to read - very often, they were just gender non-conforming children who were encouraged by teachers/doctors/trans support groups that they were born in the wrong body and should have surgery to correct it. Often there is at least one parent who expresses serious doubts but is bullied into acquiescence by others who claim their child will commit suicide if they try to prevent it. Sometimes the transgender person themselves harbours doubts about the surgery, but they get to a point where they’re on the path and just don’t know how to get off it. And at some point after the surgery has taken place (sometimes immediately, sometimes years later), they’re consumed by horror at what they’ve done and the implications it will have for the rest of their lives.

Puberty blockers should be banned and gender reassigned surgery should only be allowed in very rare cases, if at all. And those who continue to encourage vulnerable gender non-conforming young people to believe they might have been born in the wrong body should banned from ever working with young people.
 
ClaphamFox said:
What’s sinister about is that anybody who believes they were born in the wrong body, and that they need to mutilate themselves to feel better, is almost certainly suffering from a mental health condition. Such people need to be treated with kindness and compassion, but that does not mean they should be encouraged to have drastic surgeries that will render them infertile and very likely lead to lifelong health problems.

Increasing numbers of people who’ve had gender reassignment surgery are coming out and saying they profoundly regret it. The stories are so heartbreaking to read - very often, they were just gender non-conforming children who were encouraged by teachers/doctors/trans support groups that they were born in the wrong body and should have surgery to correct it. Often there is at least one parent who expresses serious doubts but is bullied into acquiescence by others who claim their child will commit suicide if they try to prevent it. Sometimes the transgender person themselves harbours doubts about the surgery, but they get to a point where they’re on the path and just don’t know how to get off it. And at some point after the surgery has taken place (sometimes immediately, sometimes years later), they’re consumed by horror at what they’ve done and the implications it will have for the rest of their lives.

Puberty blockers should be banned and gender reassigned surgery should only be allowed in very rare cases, if at all. And those who continue to encourage vulnerable gender non-conforming young people to believe they might have been born in the wrong body should banned from ever working with young people.
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Less than 1% want to detransition, a tiny minority to be basing all this on.
 
It's an interesting article which of course supports your view/opinion. There are some transgender activists that are quite extreme, but the same was being said about gay activists in the 80s, leading to Thatcher introducing Section 28. Are there actually more gay/trans people or has it become more acceptable (in some circles anyway) to "come out"?
 
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