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Well This Is What You Voted For

AFCDorset

Roofer
Because everyone knows that not continuing to have a significant connection with them is the equivalent of being up shit creek without a paddle, a canoe or a lifejacket.

That's why there was no plan in place set by any of those in charge of the 'Leave' campaign. The lure of power for looking to deliver the "will of the people" was too much for the Tories. Too much emotion & misguided jingoism, & not enough substance or detail - the latter not a surprise with Johnson at the helm.
No one is suggesting that we should not have a 'significant connection' to countries in the EU, apart from your good self. They are simply a trading block that we can or can not deal with as we chose.

There was always a plan, but the May government had no intention of implementing it, so the one thing that you are correct about. The referendum was about the principle of stying or remaining in the EU, not trade deals.
Even Starmer has said Labour have no intention of joining a single market so it’s somewhat paranoid to claim the current government will.
As an ‘EU trading partner’ of course you have no say in the rules you are expected to abide by. That’s what Brexit means.
Poor choice of words on my part, anyone who trades with the EU is a trading partner obviously, I was thinking of a partner who was inside the single market/customs union and therefore subject to all the current regulations as decided by the ECJ but with so say in what those rules entail.

Of course the words 'customs union' and 'single market' will not be used, but in effect that will be the case.
 

Mistryman

Non-Member
The referendum was about the principle of stying or remaining in the EU, not trade deals.
Brings us back to a vote based on emotion & lacking any substance, detail or awareness of the repercussions.

When a person has an illness or an injury, do they just lop off that part because it "sounds" like a good idea, or do we assess the pros & cons, & reach a conclusion based on that?
 

AFCDorset

Roofer
Brings us back to a vote based on emotion & lacking any substance, detail or awareness of the repercussions.

When a person has an illness or an injury, do they just lop off that part because it "sounds" like a good idea, or do we assess the pros & cons, & reach a conclusion based on that?
That is simply not the case.

The vote was whether we stayed as part of the EU or sought our own way as a sovereign independent state. They were the pros and cons, nothing else.

The latter option required a government that, in the words of our prime minister, 'would implement the result of the referendum what ever it was'. Which was a lie by an arch remainer, supported by a substantial group within the government and the British establishment who did everything possible to keep us involved with the EU.

Brexit was scuppered from day one, there was never any intention of letting it happen.
 

Adumass

Bentleys Roofer
Remainer nonsense

Agreed.

Everyone knows the people that wanted the hard border would never be caught up in the chaos, as they are sat at home chuntering about world wars, how horrible the French are, and 'backing Britain' by holidaying at home.

It's the other 50%, who enjoy experiencing other countries and cultures, who are caught up in the queues.
 

Mistryman

Non-Member
That is simply not the case.

The vote was whether we stayed as part of the EU or sought our own way as a sovereign independent state. They were the pros and cons, nothing else.

The latter option required a government that, in the words of our prime minister, 'would implement the result of the referendum what ever it was'. Which was a lie by an arch remainer, supported by a substantial group within the government and the British establishment who did everything possible to keep us involved with the EU.

Brexit was scuppered from day one, there was never any intention of letting it happen.
If the pros & cons had actually been widely discussed, that would’ve been welcome.

But you know well enough they weren’t - this thread with its mentions of “Frogs” (yeah, fucking hilarious) & World Wars tells you everything.
 

TopFox

Non-Member
If the pros & cons had actually been widely discussed, that would’ve been welcome.

But you know well enough they weren’t - this thread with its mentions of “Frogs” (yeah, fucking hilarious) & World Wars tells you everything.
My daughter is married to a French bloke. I know quite a few, quite well. If you honestly believe that the French don't use similar slang terms for the English, you need to add yourself to the dictionary definition of naive. (And a few other words too.)
 

Mistryman

Non-Member
My daughter is married to a French bloke. I know quite a few, quite well. If you honestly believe that the French don't use similar slang terms for the English, you need to add yourself to the dictionary definition of naive. (And a few other words too.)
Yawnsome everywhere in that case.
 

HughJanus

Roofer
Agreed.

Everyone knows the people that wanted the hard border would never be caught up in the chaos, as they are sat at home chuntering about world wars, how horrible the French are, and 'backing Britain' by holidaying at home.

It's the other 50%, who enjoy experiencing other countries and cultures, who are caught up in the queues.
But why has this chaos suddenly happened? Brexit is 2 years old, why has this suddenly become a problem? There are the same number of ferries running and all of these people pre booked. No matter how you spin it, the French are just being bloody minded, they have form for it and the question you should be asking is why. These are people who want to spend money in France and logically 48% of them are Remainers, I wonder if their opinion of the French will change because of this.
Causing chaos and spoiling peoples holidays just because you can seems like a pretty sad way to conduct yourself, yes they can do it because it’s their country but just because you can do it doesn’t mean you should
 

Adumass

Bentleys Roofer
But why has this chaos suddenly happened? Brexit is 2 years old, why has this suddenly become a problem? There are the same number of ferries running and all of these people pre booked. No matter how you spin it, the French are just being bloody minded, they have form for it and the question you should be asking is why. These are people who want to spend money in France and logically 48% of them are Remainers, I wonder if their opinion of the French will change because of this.
Causing chaos and spoiling peoples holidays just because you can seems like a pretty sad way to conduct yourself, yes they can do it because it’s their country but just because you can do it doesn’t mean you should
This is the first mass getaway since Brexit (Jan 2021). Last year most people didn't risk it as the guidelines were constantly changing and there was 10 day quarantine in force returning from France.

My experience: we got up super early Friday morning 3am, were in Folkstone by 7am so missed the worst of it. The passport checking took longer than before but not due to awkwardness on behalf of the French. The guy did the two usual things (checked faces against photos, and scanned the passports). He then carried out two extra activities on each of our four passports...he checked for previous travel this year (something about spending x number of days in the EU in the last 180 days) and then he stamped each passport. Both of these of things we (UK govt) insisted on.

So nothing major...but what would have took maybe a minute previously took about 3 mins. Multiply that by the amount of people crossing and you can see why queues are there.

People can keep blaming the French from their sofa but that's not my actual experience.
 

Pen4

Non-Member
A lot has been said and written recently about the reason for massive queues of cars – mainly carrying British holidaymakers - heading off to Europe via Dover for their summer holidays. Typical useless Border Force. French intransigence. All down to Brexit. The blame game is in overdrive.

What is the case, however, is that although the UK was in the EU single market, it was never part of the borderless Schengen zone. So we have always had passport controls between the UK and France, regardless of EU membership.

I was instrumental in the implementation of juxtaposed controls between the UK and France, some 20 years ago. This was an innovative decision, which has since been recognised as best practice in global border management.

Best to conduct passport checks (and customs checks if possible) prior to disembarkation, rather than at the port of entry. This innovative agreement between the UK and France enables ferries to flow freely across the Channel, so vehicles can literally “roll off” the ferry and onto the motorways on either side without further delay.

These arrangements also provide significant side benefits by ensuring that any passengers who are improperly documented or ineligible for admission are denied boarding, and not put through the hassle of being refused on arrival and sent back on the same ferry.

None of this has anything to do with Brexit. It was founded on the principle that the UK and France have the right under international law to agree joint bilateral treaties in order to facilitate trade and traffic across their common border, whilst collaborating with each other to combat irregular immigration, human smuggling, and international organised crime.

For most of the time, this model has worked well. However, it relies upon good operational management so that (a) there is adequate infrastructure on either side to enable the border agencies to perform their checks; and (b) that the border agencies are able to ensure their officers are in place in adequate numbers to cope with anticipated volume during peak periods.

Dover Port has recently increased the number of cabins available to the French border police, but reports suggest that the main reason for the recent delays at Dover was the inability to deploy French police officers to Dover in sufficient numbers at the right time.

EU Member States have adopted varied processes in managing arrivals from the UK after Brexit. British citizens are now “third country nationals” and as such they are subject to the full rigour of the Schengen Borders code. That means officers can ask questions as to place of residence, purpose and duration of stay, address, travel plans and so on, as well as stamping passports. This is on top of the standard passport check against electronic watch lists, which was always in place.

However, the extent to which they choose to do this is a matter for them. Anecdotal evidence from travellers entering France suggests that occasional questions may be asked whilst the passport is being scanned, and a stamp is now being applied. But this process does not add much to the transaction times that applied before Brexit. Plus – like us – EU Border Agencies have the authority to reduce certain checks in the wake of significant operational pressure upon the control, should they choose to do so. Therefore, the argument that these delays would never have happened if the UK had remained in the EU does not stand up to scrutiny.

However, that is not to say that we are out of the woods yet. There is a much bigger challenge around the corner, which is linked to Brexit.

The EU intends to introduce an “entry / exit” system (EES), which will require all “third country nationals” to submit biometrics (including finger scans) to be checked routinely when crossing the bloc's external border.

It will also bring in the Electronic Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS) – a US “ESTA” style system - which will require passengers to obtain electronic authorisation to enter before travel.

In return, the UK will be introducing an “electronic travel authority” (ETA) for all visitors (including EU citizens) entering the UK, which will also require biometric enrolment.

Tony Smith CBE is a former director general of the UK Border Force and the author of “Changing Borders – A Kingdom Unlocked”
 

RubberDoug

Non-Member
That wasn‘r my point - it’s the people that think the extra checks aren’t due to Brexit that I was aiming it at.
Above your post is experienced input from a professional. It has no emotional or political slant.

How about we just be honest and say that guys like you and Hackneyfox will always take the side of 'the other country', as long as it's not the USA and Russia.
You both seem to dislike the country that you live in.
You both want to see it fail and 'like' anything that suggests that it is failing.
 

HughJanus

Roofer
This is the first mass getaway since Brexit (Jan 2021). Last year most people didn't risk it as the guidelines were constantly changing and there was 10 day quarantine in force returning from France.

My experience: we got up super early Friday morning 3am, were in Folkstone by 7am so missed the worst of it. The passport checking took longer than before but not due to awkwardness on behalf of the French. The guy did the two usual things (checked faces against photos, and scanned the passports). He then carried out two extra activities on each of our four passports...he checked for previous travel this year (something about spending x number of days in the EU in the last 180 days) and then he stamped each passport. Both of these of things we (UK govt) insisted on.

So nothing major...but what would have took maybe a minute previously took about 3 mins. Multiply that by the amount of people crossing and you can see why queues are there.

People can keep blaming the French from their sofa but that's not my actual experience.
That’s interesting to read, it sounds like it simply comes down to lack of staff, we’ve seen a lot of this at airports already, a lack of preparedness seems endemic and a classic excuse. However the French do have form for this.
No one has explained to me why all this is necessary, what benefit is it to either country to have more checks.
A chap on the telly has just said they don’t expect the same problems coming back which suggests that the French are implementing the checks more vigorously than the UK.
We also should remember that this sort of thing has been going on for years and throughout our time in the EU it feels like just another excuse the be awkward which we handed to them, I still can’t understand why it is like this though
 

HughJanus

Roofer
That wasn‘r my point - it’s the people that think the extra checks aren’t due to Brexit that I was aiming it at.
The delays are the result of unnecessary checks that are of no benefit to anyone, common sense needs to prevail but of course these things are implemented by jobs worths in government who never have to justify it to the public at large so common sense is way down the list
 

Mistryman

Non-Member
Above your post is experienced input from a professional. It has no emotional or political slant.

How about we just be honest and say that guys like you and Hackneyfox will always take the side of 'the other country', as long as it's not the USA and Russia.
You both seem to dislike the country that you live in.
You both want to see it fail and 'like' anything that suggests that it is failing.
An amazing leap. I’d sooner love the country I live in & still be critical of what I think could be better or corrected, rather than blindly thinking it’s right when it’s obvious that it’s wrong or not working.
 

Mistryman

Non-Member
The delays are the result of unnecessary checks that are of no benefit to anyone, common sense needs to prevail but of course these things are implemented by jobs worths in government who never have to justify it to the public at large so common sense is way down the list
As I understand it, British people were waved through previously because we were part of the EU.

Now we’re not, we’re not. The French aren’t under any obligation to provide more staff to undertake these checks.

I’m sure if the tables were turned, there’d be plenty of admiration for reacting in the same way.
 

Pen4

Non-Member
As I understand it, British people were waved through previously because we were part of the EU.

Now we’re not, we’re not. The French aren’t under any obligation to provide more staff to undertake these checks.

I’m sure if the tables were turned, there’d be plenty of admiration for reacting in the same way.
Incorrect as per usual.
 

AFCDorset

Roofer
Personally I am not much bothered by what is happening to the tourists, if the 'host' country treats you in ways that you do not like, don't go there.

A fews years ago I had occasion to visit the USA. The immigration procedures was longwinded and intrusive, far beyond my expectations. Waiting time for us was 3 hours, others suggest 5 hours is not unusual. This after an 8 hour flight.

I have not, gone back.

Similarly India deliberately made tourist visas and immigration procedures very difficult (and expensive) for British tourists, while these measures remain, we shall not be returning.

Commercial traffic is different and there are regulations to deal with that. They need to be enforced.
 
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