Ref for Wednesday

In any event all the VAR idiots should be suspended until a sensible decision is made about the Spuds/Scouse shambles
 
I wonder if other countries using VAR make horrendous errors like we do.
Or is it because they are all thick and stupid
 
So, if I understand rightly, he's been suspended for this weeks premier league but he's ok to ref the scummy championship
 
And that is the problem incompetent officals from premier league allowed to referee in the efl after making an horrendous decisions.welli personally think the referees were better before they became professional and getting paid and that is saying something
 
The var decisions are often made politically imo but not helped by the stupid football league and premier league fooking about with the laws look at the stupid handball rule it used to be deliberate or not at one time now they just make it up as they go along and as for offside ,a toe or a nose, not interfering with play if you stand in front of the keeper , were feigning death on the penalty spot or someone shouted offside and upset your striker who will now have to go into therapy because the ref doesn't like him.....
Jesus wept ,money is the root cause.
 
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TartanFox said:
The sensible decision is a mistake was made and move on.

The bed wetting over the Diaz goal is embarrassing, what a shit country England is turning in to.
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When you think of the times Liverpool and the other BCCs have benefitted from the implicit bias of many other disputed VAR decisions, all this fuss sticks in my craw. VAR has been mostly crap for the smaller clubs from day one, but only now do Liverpool want to take it back to the shop, to get a refund.
 
TartanFox said:
The sensible decision is a mistake was made and move on.

The bed wetting over the Diaz goal is embarrassing, what a shit country England is turning in to.
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I just don't think you are getting it var is shit if they cannot get the simple things right then what is the fucking point.everyone in the Premier leauge has benefitted in the years it as been around its run by the same morons who officiate on the pitch other days.its not bed wetting it's incompetents of those morons who are ruining the game.
 
People wanted VAR to cut out human error. Humans control VAR, so there is human error and people are acting all surprised.

Unless anyone can prove there is specific corruption (and despite my previous rants on it, there isn't a shred of evidence) then accept mistakes happen. The clubs voted for it, they got it.

What I will say is putting the man in charge of it, who embarrassed the entire referee fraternity with his inept performance in the 2010 World Cup final demonstrates the standards in England. A man lauded by the UK media and built up to some sort Collina, who shat the bed in front of a global audience.
 
TartanFox said:
Unless anyone can prove there is specific corruption (and despite my previous rants on it, there isn't a shred of evidence) then accept mistakes happen.
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Indeed but clearly unrelated to the specific event at the weekend it is increasingly hard to escape the feeling that there is confirmation of unconscious bias (or, more cynically, semi-conscious bias) in favour of the bigger clubs. Overall VAR will have led to an increasing of correct decisions across the board irrespective of the who (i.e. smaller teams will be more likely to get a decision when clearer cut than was previously the case) but the feeling grows that the longer it has been in place & the officials have felt increasingly comfortable with it (probably because they have seen that enough views of a particular angle for a specific couple of milliseconds or freeze frame will be enough to convince enough people to go "well, you can see why it was/wasn't given") the more borderline decisions favour the bigger teams. It has also dissipated the fury directed at the on pitch officials when they get something wrong so, in terms of commentary at least (refs are still assessed), collective responsibility has largely led to no responsibility.

The question comes back to; if we accept that mistakes happen with or without VAR, is VAR worth it for an increasing %age of correct decisions? I am sure the clubs & some/many fans will still say "yes, of course". The refs will love it (see above about responsibility). As a spectator who has never liked it my answer remains "not at all (except for Ben Chillwell at Wembley) [joke]" because, honestly, I loathe it. The only positive experience is the unexpected VAR reprieve but it takes away too much from the experience of what the game is fundamentally about - scoring - and delays the game too much to be worth it and always has been.
 
buz_not_buzz said:
Indeed but clearly unrelated to the specific event at the weekend it is increasingly hard to escape the feeling that there is confirmation of unconscious bias (or, more cynically, semi-conscious bias) in favour of the bigger clubs. Overall VAR will have led to an increasing of correct decisions across the board irrespective of the who (i.e. smaller teams will be more likely to get a decision when clearer cut than was previously the case) but the feeling grows that the longer it has been in place & the officials have felt increasingly comfortable with it (probably because they have seen that enough views of a particular angle for a specific couple of milliseconds or freeze frame will be enough to convince enough people to go "well, you can see why it was/wasn't given") the more borderline decisions favour the bigger teams. It has also dissipated the fury directed at the on pitch officials when they get something wrong so, in terms of commentary at least (refs are still assessed), collective responsibility has largely led to no responsibility.

The question comes back to; if we accept that mistakes happen with or without VAR, is VAR worth it for an increasing %age of correct decisions? I am sure the clubs & some/many fans will still say "yes, of course". The refs will love it (see above about responsibility). As a spectator who has never liked it my answer remains "not at all (except for Ben Chillwell at Wembley) [joke]" because, honestly, I loathe it. The only positive experience is the unexpected VAR reprieve but it takes away too much from the experience of what the game is fundamentally about - scoring - and delays the game too much to be worth it and always has been.
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The problem is that most fans emphatically do not accept mistakes occurring when they are to the detriment of their team. They get very, very angry about them. That anger is reflected on social media, which can make referees the subject of public ridicule and hostility, which can't be good for them or their families. VAR provides a partial safety net that reduces the number of errors but does not completely eliminate them. It's a long way from being perfect but it has ultimately reduced the number of games that are determined by wrong calls by the officials, which was its original purpose.

Like you, I'm enjoying being able to celebrate a goal after a quick glance at the ref and linesman rather than endure the extended period of doubt that VAR brings. However, I can't see them scrapping VAR in the PL. That would just mean going back to the time when referees were absolutely roasted on MotD and on social media for game-defining errors, which would in turn lead to loads of people campaigning for the reintroduction of VAR. It's not going to happen.
 
TartanFox said:
I do think VAR would better if it adopted the cricket way of spectators hearing and seeing what is going on from the unseen officials.
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I agree it would improve the experience of VAR from a fan's perspective & be more transparent. I think it would also probably result in less changes of decisions in borderline cases but for me it wouldn't change the underlying weakness of the system.
 
buz_not_buzz said:
I agree it would improve the experience of VAR from a fan's perspective & be more transparent. I think it would also probably result in less changes of decisions in borderline cases but for me it wouldn't change the underlying weakness of the system.
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It wouldn’t but at least those in the stadium will know the rationale of a decision going one way or another.
 
There's a fascinating column about this (reffing) in the i/Indepedent today.
It's not really about how reffing has/or not improved/become worse.
It's about the change in cultutre in which the game is a rising component.
We live in an outrage culture fuelled by exposure to any match we want
to view and the belief that technology will make sense or rectify human
decision making. But humans work the technology!
And making it all transparent only prolongs the contraversy.
Seeing a club like Liverpool so angry makes me laugh as their usual ability to bully refs is challenged.
Piper on RL observed that at Liverpool last week the ref became scared of the crowd
and sought to win them over by giving a string of decisions against us. Humans eh?
 
Our refs used to be the best and the envy of the rest of the world. Now they are almost all useless and biased yes men. The Rugby system where the ref views the replays on the big screen at least lets the fans know what the question is. So we should play 40 mins each half and the ref to call time off for injuries and reviews. When the clock reaches 80 mins blow the whistle---no argument no fergie time and its a model that works.
 
ClaphamFox said:
The problem is that most fans emphatically do not accept mistakes occurring when they are to the detriment of their team.
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Absolutely we don't and we spend days, years, even decades, recalling them & railing against them. And clubs through managers & players have traditionally done the same in the immediate aftermath. And when there are really bad mistakes there is a lot of noise (hello Mike Reed) but ultimately bugger all happens because actually people, however begrudgingly, do have to accept them as the reality. What is interesting about the weekend is that it is clear that Liverpool as a club do not accept what happened on Saturday (which I am enjoying immensely). How far will they be prepared to go??? But...

ClaphamFox said:
However, I can't see them scrapping VAR in the PL. That would just mean going back to the time when referees were absolutely roasted on MotD and on social media for game-defining errors, which would in turn lead to loads of people campaigning for the reintroduction of VAR. It's not going to happen.
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I completely agree and didn't suggest that it is going to happen (and it certainly wouldn't because some idiot just outside of Leicester doesn't like VAR) but it is clear there are issues (and I think increasing issues as the boundaries that govern how it is used feel like they have become increasingly elastic over time). Whilst recognising the game is full of nuance & grey areas, the failure of the Premier League to properly codify it's use (e.g. what is clear and obvious etc. ) and/or for the PL & PGMOL to ensure adherence to it (not to mention the aforementioned lack of transparency of the process) it will continue to be a shit show.
 
Oadlad said:
There's a fascinating column about this (reffing) in the i/Indepedent today.
It's not really about how reffing has/or not improved/become worse.
It's about the change in cultutre in which the game is a rising component.
We live in an outrage culture fuelled by exposure to any match we want
to view and the belief that technology will make sense or rectify human
decision making. But humans work the technology!
And making it all transparent only prolongs the contraversy.
Seeing a club like Liverpool so angry makes me laugh as their usual ability to bully refs is challenged.
Piper on RL observed that at Liverpool last week the ref became scared of the crowd
and sought to win them over by giving a string of decisions against us. Humans eh?
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The outrage culture is precisely why VAR is here to stay. I just can't see us transitioning to a period in which people are more tolerant of human error, in football or in any other sphere.
 
Yes, the present culture will not disappear soon.
It's a child of a society in which stress, both individual, societal and economic, is regarded as
natural. Access to media such as this enables everybody to be an expert.
Confrontation is now the norm so we have to get used to it or work to end it.
 
What’s interesting about this is Liverpool will fight to get things changed after this error, and will maybe succeed.

They have been the beneficiary of plenty of incorrect VAR decisions since it was launched, they’ll quite probably end up worse off for it.
 
DagenhamFox said:
What’s interesting about this is Liverpool will fight to get things changed after this error, and will maybe succeed.

They have been the beneficiary of plenty of incorrect VAR decisions since it was launched, they’ll quite probably end up worse off for it.
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What are they asking to be changed?!

The ref for our game on Wednesday is now Thomas Bramall.
 
Originally I thought theyd not seen Romero's foot but from whats been said since it might be that the VAR people thought the goal had been given hence check complete. If that is the case theres absolutely no excuse not to stop the game whenever that is realised and correct matters.
 
Yorkfox said:
Originally I thought theyd not seen Romero's foot but from whats been said since it might be that the VAR people thought the goal had been given hence check complete. If that is the case theres absolutely no excuse not to stop the game whenever that is realised and correct matters.
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That is a problem though, because there is nothing in the laws that allow for that to happen. So Spurs would, and rightly so within the rules, kick off and demand all sorts of recriminations.
 
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