Is the Bundesliga better than the Premier League?

DagenhamFox

DagenhamFox

Blue Roofer
Well, that depends.

This season two German teams have made it to the semi final of the Champions League where none of the English teams has done. But is that a good barometer?

I’m not sure. Klopp is right to a point when he says we play too many games. We do compared to Germany. They have one cup (Pokal) with less teams and no replays whereas we have two. They also only play 34 league games a season. That said I never want our traditions to be compromised and if Klopp doesn’t like it he can go and manage a team in another country.

From what I’ve seen on the pitch many times the quality of the football isn’t as good in Germany. As they have less money most teams struggle to attract the better players who are drawn to Spain, England, and now Saudi Arabia to earn their corn.

That means it can be more competitive. Take Stuttgart for example. They’ve been down the bottom and in the second league for years. They have found one very decent forward who’s scored a ton of goals this season for them and they are in the top four and look good for a Champions League place next season. More so now the Bundesliga may take the extra place for coefficiency.

For the fan experience though there is really no comparison. Ticket prices are cheaper even for the seats. If you can get a standing ticket (Stehplatz) then even better. I pay about €20 a game at Borussia Mönchengladbach. The standing means the atmosphere is much better. There really is no comparison. The drinking culture also helps and you can have a beer whilst watching the game.

Also that most of the clubs are 50% +1 owned by the fans they don’t put up with all the bureaucracy we have to. They keep their traditions and they will protest if anyone tries to change those traditions. We’ve seen that this season with all the teams hardcore fans coming together to deliver mass protests at the plans for the Bundesliga to sell out to the Saudi’s. Because of this there does seem to be a greater connection between the players and the fans.

But which is better? That’s not for me to decide for you, make your own minds up. For me I wouldn’t swap my German trips for anything. I love them so much. Don’t get me wrong I love Leicester and despite me saying I don’t care, deep down inside I know I do, but my weekends away are fantastic.

If you have the time and the money I definitely recommend everyone gives the experience of watching football abroad a go at least once or twice. Maybe Germany. Maybe Belgium and our sister club. Maybe somewhere else. The world is your oyster. While the football on the pitch here is shite Joe’s a good time to do it.
 
Spot on.
Premier league is much more competitive than any other top European League.
Bottom half Premier League teams would easily beat bottom half Bundesliga teams (same for Spain, Italy, France .. other leagues are even worse).
BUT .. going to a game in many countries (especially Germany) is a much better experience. Better transport, Better atmosphere, Better facilities inside and close to stadium … and much cheaper.

.. and Klopp moaning about too many games is just Klopp moaning. He can play a weakened side for European games if he likes!
 
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DagenhamFox said:
This season two German teams have made it to the semi final of the Champions League where none of the English teams has done. But is that a good barometer?
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The first time that any German team has made the semi-final since 2019/20 (when two did) & Bayern went on to win it but were the only German finalists in the last 10 seasons before this one (and not many semi finalists either since the middle of the last decade). If Champions League performance was a barometer of the strength of a league, the Bundersliga is utter pants in comparison to the PL. So, no, it isn't a good barometer for many of the reasons you go on to state. Bayern's dominance before this season is another good indicator that, as a league, it is - or has been - f**ked up.

Still, there's nothing more predictable or less interesting than the angsty handwringing & self-serving agendas that come out whenever a PL team doesn't make the CL semis.
 
Great write up Dags. I don’t think the Bundesliga is as good as the PL football wise but those points about one cup and 34 games certainly makes a difference.
Personally for me Man City & RM were the best two teams in the QF’s and happened to meet.
But you’re all spot on about atmosphere. 7 of us went to Leuven in January and despite only 8000 being in a 10000 stadium the whole experience was so much better than in England.
 
Brusselsfox said:
Spot on.
Premier league is much more competitive than any other top European League.
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Is it?

Man City are going for 4 on the trot and have won 5 out of the last 6 and 6 out of the last 10. It's close to becoming a Farmer's League like the SPFL, just with more fake tan and Hunter wellies.
 
The trouble here is the FL and the FA do not
Give a flying fuck about supporters.
Revenue is king,, gate receipts are no longer a viable asset, its commerce that gets results you've seen it over the years firstly it was emblazoned on a shirt now its everywhere, you see commercial activities hold sway, whatever sport you care to watch
 
Many thanks for the great write-up, Dags!

I think the most accurate key to a fair comparison of the football performance of either country's leagues are the UEFA five-year rankings which sum up the Champions League, Europa League and Europa Conference League performance. The tables are being used to determine CL places, which team goes into which qualification group and so on.

They can be found here, for example, and they're constantly updated:

UEFA European Cup Football

UEFA European Cup Football - Results and Qualification
kassiesa.net kassiesa.net

Especially important are the "Country Ranking" and the "Country Coefficients" tables. The former sums up each country's performance over the last five years, the latter shows the current season (or previous ones if you click on the previous years). As can be seen, England is currently leading the pack by a sizeable margin in the country ranking. It hasn't always been like that. In fact, Spain led the table for a long time but has fallen back a little over the last five years or so.

Overall, the first four (i.e. Spain, Germany, Italy and England) have been pretty constant since I started looking at these tables maybe ten or fifteen years ago.

Over the last few years, Germany has also fallen behind a little. They were ahead of Italy not that long ago, who seems to be catching up fast and will even overtake Spain in 2025 (click on 2025 in the country ranking table)! So it appears that England and Italy are currently very strong whereas Spain and Germany are falling behind! All those four teams are well ahead of France in 5th place though, and I can't see that changing any time soon!

So, in that sense in comparing Germany and England, it's a pretty clear decision which country is performing better on the pitch. No question about that!

As far as the fan experience is concerned, I can't really comment since I haven't been to a football match in either country for many years. My England experience has always been great though, and I've always loved the uninhibited and generally good-natured banter and humour between different fans (I know it's not always like this). Sadly, I can't remember when was the last time I've been to a German football stadium - and even sadder is the fact I've lived in Berlin for over eight years and never managed to go and see Union Berlin at least once...

Overall, my outlook on football isn't optimistic. The insanity regarding squeezing money out of it seems to increase every year, and the last World Cup was the first one since 1974 (when I was just under six years old and basically didn't know what football was) that I didn't watch (except the final from the 2nd half onwards). I'm not even sure whether I'll watch EURO 2024.
 
To add to the above: I agree with Klopp that too many games are being played in England. In my opinon this is contributing to the fact that the England team hasn't won anything for yonks.

Having said that, it won't change any time soon! Rather the opposite: even more games! Club World Cup, inflating the World Cup to three continents and 48 teams, inflating the European competitions, the Saudis buying everything and so on. The madness continues...
 
Well today we’ve announced there are no replays in the FA Cup so that takes out a possible game or two each season.
 
Thanks for your very eloquent and informative post Swabianfox.
If I’ve got this correct then there’s a real irony in this years coefficients as far as England are concerned. Very probably both West Ham and Liverpool will go out tonight. Added to the fact that both of their opponents are German and Italian. This will mean in all probability that those two countries will get the treasured 5th CL place. So Villa are the only ones who can boost that coefficientcy as far as English teams are concerned. They get knocked out and England only gets 4 CL places next season which the way Villa are playing will be them. The 5th PL side will therefore miss out. Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear!
 
Brusselsfox said:
Spot on.
Premier league is much more competitive than any other top European League.
Bottom half Premier League teams would easily beat bottom half Bundesliga teams (same for Spain, Italy, France .. other leagues are even worse).
BUT .. going to a game in many countries (especially Germany) is a much better experience. Better transport, Better atmosphere, Better facilities inside and close to stadium … and much cheaper.

.. and Klopp moaning about too many games is just Klopp moaning. He can play a weakened side for European games if he likes!
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You can argue the standards are better in one league or the other, but to argue the PL is more competitive is just wrong, if you're definition of competitive is anybody can beat anybody on a given day.
Just like the other euro leagues pretty much the same clubs will be near the top year after year, with the only blips occurring when an owner picks the wrong manager and they finish 10th instead of 5th letting a villa or a brighton in temporarily.
 
I must admit I'm not familiar with the mechanisms behind the fifth CL place.

In trying to understand what's going on I've literally just now found out there's a new set of rules in place! It looks like the two best countries in terms of the coefficient get a fifth place each. Since Germany and Italy are currently leading, and Liverpool and West Ham indeed look close to going out, it looks like these two teams could come from Germany and Italy next season.

As we speak, Aston Villa stands at 2-2 on aggregate.
 
swabianfox said:
I must admit I'm not familiar with the mechanisms behind the fifth CL place.

In trying to understand what's going on I've literally just now found out there's a new set of rules in place! It looks like the two best countries in terms of the coefficient get a fifth place each. Since Germany and Italy are currently leading, and Liverpool and West Ham indeed look close to going out, it looks like these two teams could come from Germany and Italy next season.

As we speak, Aston Villa stands at 2-2 on aggregate.
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And Villa too. Looks like the usual annual losers will again miss out
 
hackneyfox said:
With Villa having qualified what do we need for the 5th CL place, both Scousers and West Ham to qualify or just one?
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Neither. It's called 'the champions league' not 'the top 4 league'.
If the PL clubs want to reduce number of games in a season let's see it go back to a straight 2 legged knockout tourney and have replays at every round in the FA cup.
Plus Klopp's a twat, and the spammers got a free stadium from the tax payer. they can both fack off.
 
hackneyfox said:
With Villa having qualified what do we need for the 5th CL place, both Scousers and West Ham to qualify or just one?
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There is no straightforward answer to that.

The country coefficient is determined by the number of points in each competition divided by the number of teams. Points are two for a win, one for a draw, and additional bonus points for reaching various stages of the different competitions.

As we speak, Italy is currently leading this year's table at 19.428 points, Germany is in 2nd place at 17.928 points, and England 3rd at 17.375 points.

So basically, Villa as the last English team has to fetch more points than the remaining three German teams and enough points to push up England's average points to abridge the difference between the two countries, since only the first two countries in the table get an additional CL place.

I'm not even sure if it's still mathematically possible, since every point Villa fetches from now on is divided by the eight teams that started this year's competitions for England. I'll try and run a few numbers later but the possible bonus points comfound predictions...

UEFA Country Coefficients 2023/2024

UEFA European Cup Football - UEFA Country Coefficients 2023/2024
kassiesa.net
 
As far as I can see England cannot get 2nd place especially if Bayern and Dortmund play each other in the SF. Hopefully Villa will get 4th place and qualify rather than those nancy boys in N.London
 
Bayern and Dortmund do not play each other in the semi final.

I agree I think we’re out of the coefficiency race even if Villa win the trophy.
 
I think the maximum points that Villa can still get is six points from the three games if they win all of them (two semi-finals and the final). This would also mean one additional bonus point for reaching the final. Or does their competition have a two-legged final? I'm not sure.

Seven points for Villa in total would take the England total to 146 points and would take the England coefficient to 18.25. So it's still mathematically possible to overtake Germany (they're at 17.928 at the moment).

However, the three remaining German teams will have to fetch 128 points in total (only seven teams in the competition) to go above 18.25 on average. As of now, they stand at 125.5. With at least six games left in the competition chances are pretty high they will get one win (2 points) and one draw (1 point) between them even if they all go out at the semi final stage.

Edited for spelling.
 
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