Hartlepool
- Thread starter Billsballbag
- Start date
ClaphamFox
Roofer
It has always been harder for Labour to win elections than the Conservatives. Social and demographic changes over the past few decades have made it even harder for them. There is no obvious solution, either. Starmer clearly isn't pulling up any trees, but if they get rid of him and choose a more openly socialist leader (as some are calling for), they'll probably be even more unpopular than they are now. What do they do? It's a massive problem for them.
F
Foxgolfer
Guest
I agree with you to an extent. Not sure what the “working class” is now and Labour need to get their head round that . The Tories largely destroyed the countries manufacturing base in the 80s and 90s and Thatcher killed off the miners and Union power .
People are ultimately interested in making enough to get by and securing a future for their kids and getting a decent education and health system. Many clearly don’t give a stuff about corruption or democracy.
Having said that I seriously question whether further years of Tory rule is really the best option for most .Time will tell ,but at the moment “levelling up” is just another slogan . Let’s see if they deliver
Re the point of the post - Do zero contract people who work in the gig economy now become the working class or office workers ?
Could be an interesting chat .
Spouting nonsense like this is half the problem. Times change, we have changed with those times to survive, there is still plenty of manufacturing it's just done by smaller more nimble companies using modern machines and technology. Heavy industry could never survive in these "green" times and we can't compete on labour costs at the bottom end of the market. The unions put the cross in and Thatcher just tapped it home. What ever you think, we now have more people employed than ever before.
What does "working class" really mean?
AFCDorset
Roofer
Morning Foxgolfer.
That is almost quite good.
You just need to understand that the media is not 'right wing', it is globalist/authoritarian and an integral part of the establishment/deep state. It does not matter one jot whether Labour, the Tories or Vlad the Impaler is forming the government as long as they continue the globalist agenda.
Dismantling (what little is left) of our democracy and increasing inequality are just part of the plan to control the proletariat in every way possible.
Understanding that is the first step, grasp that and the rest will follow.
Club_B00k_Crutchless
Registered
I agree with that to a certain extent. The break up of the large scale industries, mining etc has led to what were large communities with more traditional blue collar workers, membership of a union, working men's clubs and a proper community dispersing into smaller groups. Thatcher has got her wish, there's no such thing as society it's every man for himself. What were the traditional Labour support base are now thinking more about what's in it for them and their family, rather than the large collective greater good.
The problem for Labour is how are they going to win this section of society back. Blair did well bringing in the middle class, pro-Europe, green loving liberals, but they took their eye off the ball with their traditional base. They now have the socialist left wanting a return to the older values, the Corbynites, set against the centre-ground Blairites who want to go after the middle ground.
ClaphamFox
Roofer
Your last sentence describes the problem very well. The problem is, the party membership is bitterly divided between the Corbynites and the middle-class centrists (who basically hate each other's guts), and neither of them really understand the traditional base. The 'red wall' didn't care for Corbyn and, it seems, doesn't much care for Starmer. Is there anybody in the party who can lead it out of this mess? If there is, I don't know who it is yet...
CBC, the problem with the unions was they didn't see the change in society coming. What they called "closed shop" became a protection racket, mass pickets suddenly became bullying and preventing choice. Unions are a good thing but they didn't move quickly enough. Working mens clubs just like pubs have struggled to be more attractive than cheap supermarket booze and multi channel media entertainment. I lived in mining villages and I don't remember there being the community spirit so many refer to
I thought the way he conducted himself after the Manchester bombings was superb and he never received the plaudits he deserved but he does have a tendency to go all Arthur Scargill at times.
Billsballbag
Roofer
How do you know they rarely bother to vote? Maybe they don’t vote because they don’t feel that anyone represents them and there lies the heart of Labours problem. Labour doesn’t represent the people anymore.
Club_B00k_Crutchless
Registered
That's because they never told you about all their social gatherings!
Billsballbag
Roofer
Nonsense, you’re painting it as apathy rather than feeling unrepresented and forgotten.
F
Foxgolfer
Guest
That’s exactly what I was asking !
F
Foxgolfer
Guest
Who does ?
sixthswan
Non-Member
ClaphamFox
Roofer
This article by Tony Blair about the dire situation Labour is in hits the nail on the head over and over again. Obviously because it's Tony Blair saying it, it will be dismissed or ignored. He's right, though.
Without total change, Labour will die
Without total change, Labour will die
F
Foxgolfer
Guest
Blair consistently speaks more sense than any current politician
Billsballbag
Roofer
Blair presided over a policy targeting 50% of the young going to University, leading to the swathes of young people getting worthless degrees and putting their life chances back.
He also oversaw a social security policy which made it more affordable not to work leading to a significant proportion of the population reliant on a system that worked against their best interests.
Labour used to stand up for the little guy. It championed workers rights and stood up for the working class.
The Blair years led to a generation set back and a culture of dependency because it was less affordable to graft.
This country hasn’t got a mainline party that looks to make real change. To do so requires a party to change the class system in this country. It requires a party to change the dynamic so that inheritance is taxed more, parental loans for house purchases are taxed more, fairer access to higher education for all people is endorsed properly in all forms and all forms of skill training are championed.
The issue is labour is full of people who either live in the 70’s or benefit from the status quo. Privileged people pontificating on the life chances of people who haven’t been given what they take for granted.
They could be a force, but that would require lateral and brave thinking and looking to create equal opportunities and changing the Class dynamic that is so entrenched in the UK.
Instead they bleat about it and pay it lip service whilst sending their kids to private school to keep the status quo going.
Contemptible bunch of morons.
He also oversaw a social security policy which made it more affordable not to work leading to a significant proportion of the population reliant on a system that worked against their best interests.
Labour used to stand up for the little guy. It championed workers rights and stood up for the working class.
The Blair years led to a generation set back and a culture of dependency because it was less affordable to graft.
This country hasn’t got a mainline party that looks to make real change. To do so requires a party to change the class system in this country. It requires a party to change the dynamic so that inheritance is taxed more, parental loans for house purchases are taxed more, fairer access to higher education for all people is endorsed properly in all forms and all forms of skill training are championed.
The issue is labour is full of people who either live in the 70’s or benefit from the status quo. Privileged people pontificating on the life chances of people who haven’t been given what they take for granted.
They could be a force, but that would require lateral and brave thinking and looking to create equal opportunities and changing the Class dynamic that is so entrenched in the UK.
Instead they bleat about it and pay it lip service whilst sending their kids to private school to keep the status quo going.
Contemptible bunch of morons.
F
Foxgolfer
Guest
Heard a guy on LBC the other day saying 300k of inherited income should be tax free . After that top rate of tax . Would solve countrys public service funding problems in 5 years .
Not sure if correct but sounds on the right lines .
Billsballbag
Roofer
FG why should it go to public service funding?
The electorate don’t care that much about the NHS and the like as much as Labour think. It’s one of the main reasons people have stopped voting for them.
People just want an equal shot rather than a system rigged for the privileged.
Institutions like the NHS don’t win votes. Normal people see their taxes funding public sector pensions that they could only dream of. The public sector flag waving is part of the problem not the solution.
AFCDorset
Roofer
I find this fixation with Inheritance quite disturbing.
First up, my 'family home' was a two bedroom council flat on the Monsell, I had to pay the last rent bill myself when my mother died in the mid '70s, in financial terms my inheritance was negligible.
Many of my friends were not rich, but they owned their homes and were in a position to help their children get a start in life, this made a big impression on me.
I think that is pretty much the way it should be, building generation by generation. My family came from being indentured industrial workers in Birmingham to a university educated, 'middle class' bastard like me in less than 100 years. My only child is a successful lawyer, Australian citizen but currently working for the New Zealand government in Wellington.
We virtually financed his education, helped him move to Australia and 'sorted out' his inheritance some 9 or 10 years ago. not the closest of family relationships but he is doing fine and I fully expect his own kids to do even better.
That for me is how things should work, we are not exceptional, but we did, in the main, make decent choices.
First up, my 'family home' was a two bedroom council flat on the Monsell, I had to pay the last rent bill myself when my mother died in the mid '70s, in financial terms my inheritance was negligible.
Many of my friends were not rich, but they owned their homes and were in a position to help their children get a start in life, this made a big impression on me.
I think that is pretty much the way it should be, building generation by generation. My family came from being indentured industrial workers in Birmingham to a university educated, 'middle class' bastard like me in less than 100 years. My only child is a successful lawyer, Australian citizen but currently working for the New Zealand government in Wellington.
We virtually financed his education, helped him move to Australia and 'sorted out' his inheritance some 9 or 10 years ago. not the closest of family relationships but he is doing fine and I fully expect his own kids to do even better.
That for me is how things should work, we are not exceptional, but we did, in the main, make decent choices.
Billsballbag
Roofer
Dorset that’s not what I mean.
The inheritance tax system props up the Class system.
Theres a huge difference between aspiration and the wealthy who get spoon fed a huge advantage in life.
There is a lot of attention to racism at the minute, but it’s a blunt debate. Unless the country has a grown up debate about Class it’s knackered. People talking about white privilege when that is only part of the point. Theres plenty of white people struggling to get jobs. Class privilege isn’t debated and yet they go hand in hand.
But then the middle class left won’t want to have that debate as they are part of that privileged class.
The inheritance tax system props up the Class system.
Theres a huge difference between aspiration and the wealthy who get spoon fed a huge advantage in life.
There is a lot of attention to racism at the minute, but it’s a blunt debate. Unless the country has a grown up debate about Class it’s knackered. People talking about white privilege when that is only part of the point. Theres plenty of white people struggling to get jobs. Class privilege isn’t debated and yet they go hand in hand.
But then the middle class left won’t want to have that debate as they are part of that privileged class.