Hartlepool

To get back on thread, Labour have a dilemma the left of the party which seems to include most of the members really don’t understand the general public, the days of ranting table thumping Tory hating have gone The MPs and the leaders have cottoned on how to get elected they now have to take the members with them
 
To get back on thread, Labour have a dilemma the left of the party which seems to include most of the members really don’t understand the general public, the days of ranting table thumping Tory hating have gone The MPs and the leaders have cottoned on how to get elected they now have to take the members with them
Due to our terrible system Johnson and this particularly unpleasant and inept bunch of Tories are claiming they somehow speak for the country .
They don’t
Roughly 27% of the electorate voted for them . Most of the rest couldn’t care less or hate Johnson’s guts .
 
They were duly elected by a democratic system that is virtually unchanged from the one that voted in Blair and Brown.

It is how our system, flawed as it may be, works. The numbers would suggest that there are lots of dissatisfied voters out there, but no one seems interested or capable of addressing or motivating them.

I find that strange.
 
They were duly elected by a democratic system that is virtually unchanged from the one that voted in Blair and Brown.

It is how our system, flawed as it may be, works. The numbers would suggest that there are lots of dissatisfied voters out there, but no one seems interested or capable of addressing or motivating them.

I find that strange.
They need to stop the in-fighting and get out there and talk to people in the constituencies like Hartlepool. Find out why they voted Tory.

It's not helped by people who think it's the local Labour Council's fault hospitals have closed, there are fewer nurses and police. The Tories targeted Labour Councils with their austerity measures, knowing people would blame Labour when they had to make cuts to services.
 
Club Book, whilst what you say is quite possibly close to the truth, it does show the big problem that Labour has.

It is this focus on services and the public sector that is the issue for many people, the 'real' working class, small business people, the self employed are the ones driving the economy and paying the taxes yet Labour appears to do very little for them, either locally or at a national level.

It is all about 'services' with Labour, effectively they are re-inforcing failure rather than building for success.
 
Due to our terrible system Johnson and this particularly unpleasant and inept bunch of Tories are claiming they somehow speak for the country .
They don’t
Roughly 27% of the electorate voted for them . Most of the rest couldn’t care less or hate Johnson’s guts .
Seems somehow slightly at odds with your comment on the London Mayor thread about Khan getting "Elected twice as Mayor with votes from over 2 million people so not hated that much" – when also Boris got elected to the same role twice?
Just wondering, like...
 
Keir Starmer's fundamental problem is that large swathes of his party detest the very people that used to be Labour's core support.
He can try to *act* like that's not true all he likes, but voters aren't stupid. They know it's true.

Labours essential coalition of support has collapsed and cannot be rebuilt. The traditional working class found out via the Brexit experience what the modern middle class Left thinks of it. Now issue after issue is further widening the gulf.

Labour is two parties now, co-existing uneasily, pro-Remain London and the other affluent cities, and places like Hartlepool.
The two despise each other, but only one side will admit to it.

Labour needs to split and rebuild, or die.
 
Club Book, whilst what you say is quite possibly close to the truth, it does show the big problem that Labour has.

It is this focus on services and the public sector that is the issue for many people, the 'real' working class, small business people, the self employed are the ones driving the economy and paying the taxes yet Labour appears to do very little for them, either locally or at a national level.

It is all about 'services' with Labour, effectively they are re-inforcing failure rather than building for success.
Spot on.

And a bit of introspection needed rather than blaming someone else and shouting NHS.
 
"It's not helped by people who think it's the local Labour Council's fault hospitals have closed, there are fewer nurses and police. The Tories targeted Labour Councils with their austerity measures, knowing people would blame Labour when they had to make cuts to services".

But up until the pandemic these services were adequate for most people, these people have seen first hand that throwing money at things isn't the answer long term and they're looking for an alternative way. An awful lot of local councils seem to priortise the wrong things.

If people are in need of benefits they think tax and spend is the answer, if they're in work they look at their wage slip and see how much is gone then they see what is perceived to be waste and they get angry. I'm not saying they're right but is does happen.

I think that a lot of people are now tired of the NHS constantly moaning and telling us what heroes they are.
 
"It's not helped by people who think it's the local Labour Council's fault hospitals have closed, there are fewer nurses and police. The Tories targeted Labour Councils with their austerity measures, knowing people would blame Labour when they had to make cuts to services".

But up until the pandemic these services were adequate for most people, these people have seen first hand that throwing money at things isn't the answer long term and they're looking for an alternative way. An awful lot of local councils seem to priortise the wrong things.

If people are in need of benefits they think tax and spend is the answer, if they're in work they look at their wage slip and see how much is gone then they see what is perceived to be waste and they get angry. I'm not saying they're right but is does happen.

I think that a lot of people are now tired of the NHS constantly moaning and telling us what heroes they are.
Knowing a fair few people working for the NHS, not one of them has ever referred to themselves as heroes.

And as for throwing money at things, it's extremely sad that so many have turned a blind eye to the amount of money this govt has spaffed on their mates.
 
Here you go again.

Most people don’t give a toss if the Tories are lining the pockets of their chums if they think they have better prospects with them in Government.

Thats the stark truth.
 
Faced with the choice of Tory self interest and sleaze or Labour self interest and greed, a lot of people believe what Billsballbag says, that the prospects of 'getting on' and making a reasonable living are better under the Torys.

Until this last year, I would say that view is largely correct, now, who knows...
 
Knowing a fair few people working for the NHS, not one of them has ever referred to themselves as heroes.

And as for throwing money at things, it's extremely sad that so many have turned a blind eye to the amount of money this govt has spaffed on their mates.
How much money is it and which mates did it go to?
 
Most people don’t give a toss if the Tories are lining the pockets of their chums if they think they have better prospects with them in Government.
It isn't & should never be a trade-off. The level of corruption & sleaze is shameful - exactly the sort of thing we'd expect of tinpot dictatorships.
 
How much money is it and which mates did it go to?




TBH, just Google 'government contracts scandal' & take your pick.
 
People are more pragmatic than that - we were in the shit big time, get it sorted quick, no committees no MPs trying to shit on each other just get it done

Look at the mess the EU are in
 
We have turned back full circle really, to the early days of Thatcher.

Think back to the divisions in society in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The failures of the left. The swing to the right of the general public; in the main. Widespread dislike of the PM, but on election day; the votes rolled in. A feeling that the Tories were the better hope for the average person, even though the poorer sections of society were left behind. No credible opposition. Squabbling between the factions of the Labour Party, until a Tory-lite leader made them electable again.

Large parts of the north were left behind, as industries were allowed to be decimated. The true "Red Wall" was not fooled by Thatcher. Though it was only a small wall. A series of small walls with gaps in between. Only a few places have really been strongholds of "Labour no matter what" support.

In the main, the "Red Wall" has been a large number of seats with marginal majorities for Labour. With plenty of working-class Tory support.

Fast forward. Add Brexit and a promise of a Northern Powerhouse and the "Red Wall" collapses.

In time the Tory party will turn on itself, as it did with Thatcher. A Tory-lite Labour leader will be waiting in the wings. The true nature of the "Red Wall" is that its loyalties can flip on a whim.
 
we were in the shit big time, get it sorted quick, no committees no MPs trying to shit on each other just get it done
That so many contracts happened to be awarded to companies owned by govt-friends &/or to companies that amazingly had only been set up a few weeks before the contract was awarded to them, is simply unacceptable. In so many instances, those companies had NO experience of providing the service they were being paid for.

There may well be an inquiry into all this when the dust settles, but considering the nature & personality of this govt, I also fully expect much to be brushed away under the guise of "What the people are really concerned about is <<insert here whatever the latest thing us to distract people>>".

That you & others are willing to suck all the above up, is truly sad.
 
People are more pragmatic than that - we were in the shit big time, get it sorted quick, no committees no MPs trying to shit on each other just get it done

Look at the mess the EU are in
To add, if the government truly believe they have done nothing wrong, why don't they allow themselves to be totally accountable, & be totally transparent as a result?

I can accept there may have been an element of 'panic buying' in the early stages of the pandemic, but for that to have been continued so blatantly & for so long afterwards, tells you how far down the snouts are in the trough.

Perhaps there won't be so many willing to accept their excuses otherwise, the next time they mention there isn't money left for whatever is totally necessary for betterment of this country's people?
 
They may well have done something wrong but the time for fucking about with ego massaging committees full of self important arse wipes is later when we've got this shit shoveled up and not by jumping into the middle of it and flinging it at everyone you don't like
This could well bite the Tories in the arse at the next election but for now people just want the job done quickly so we can safely get their lives back. These things take time to put in place we didn't have time and on top of that the government were getting stick for not acting fast enough. If Labour have got any sense they'll keep their powder dry and bring all this up at the right time

Sad but predictable as far as Urino Heep is concerned.

Must try harder
 
Sixthswan, nice rant but the north now is pretty prosperous with quite low unemployment The old industries have gone and people no longer remember the days of militant unions making the rules
 
If Labour have got any sense they'll keep their powder dry and bring all this up at the right time
Admire your optimism. But this govt has mastered the art of ‘deflect & blame’ - so bringing this up later on will I fear simply result in a slogan (“Got the job done!” or something similar) that will convince you & others they’ve done a marvellously good job & kept their noses clean.
 
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