“Subscribe

Whatever happened to ….

AFCDorset

Season Ticket Holder
Evening hackney, I'll have a go at that.

For the sake of the discussion, let us assume that the take from income tax is to remain unchanged. Calculate the rate required to obtain that take as a flat percentage, whatever that is, that is the tax rate. You can also take the opportunity to revise the rules so that anyone who earns money in this country pays, no ifs, no buts, no avoidance or evasion.

I suggested that a PA would help those on low wages and or making a start in working life, SteveYork thinks not, there is an interesting discussion to be had there, I think his point about everyone contributing is a good one, variable tax rates, not so much.
 

SardiniaFox

Season Ticket Holder
How about taking people fairly on income rather than the raft of "hidden" taxes that disproportionately affect the poorest?
 

hackneyfox

Season Ticket Holder
Evening hackney, I'll have a go at that.

For the sake of the discussion, let us assume that the take from income tax is to remain unchanged. Calculate the rate required to obtain that take as a flat percentage, whatever that is, that is the tax rate. You can also take the opportunity to revise the rules so that anyone who earns money in this country pays, no ifs, no buts, no avoidance or evasion.

I suggested that a PA would help those on low wages and or making a start in working life, SteveYork thinks not, there is an interesting discussion to be had there, I think his point about everyone contributing is a good one, variable tax rates, not so much.
So someone on 25K a year will see a significant hike in their taxes whilst someone on one million will see a significant drop.
How do you then even that out or do you think that would be 'fair'?
 

hackneyfox

Season Ticket Holder
If we assume the take from income tax is to remain unchanged and 30% of tax is paid by the top 1% (didn't you say 90% by 10%?) the just how high would the new rate of tax have to be?
30%?
Johnson gave us a massive increase in taxes yesterday, imagine the meltdown if it went up from 20% to 30%.
Blimey, you may even have 20 tories voting against it (guaremted it wouldn't be enough to defeat the government).
 

AFCDorset

Season Ticket Holder
So someone on 25K a year will see a significant hike in their taxes whilst someone on one million will see a significant drop.
How do you then even that out or do you think that would be 'fair'?
Firstly I dispute your figures, why would anyone on £25k have to pay more? Set the tax rate accordingly.

Given all the tax breaks and avoidance tricks used by high earners, they would be the ones paying more.
 

AFCDorset

Season Ticket Holder
If we assume the take from income tax is to remain unchanged and 30% of tax is paid by the top 1% (didn't you say 90% by 10%?) the just how high would the new rate of tax have to be?
30%?
Johnson gave us a massive increase in taxes yesterday, imagine the meltdown if it went up from 20% to 30%.
Blimey, you may even have 20 tories voting against it (guaremted it wouldn't be enough to defeat the government).
Dunno, ask an accountant.

Look for solutions not problems.
 

hackneyfox

Season Ticket Holder
Firstly I dispute your figures, why would anyone on £25k have to pay more? Set the tax rate accordingly.

Given all the tax breaks and avoidance tricks used by high earners, they would be the ones paying more.
You wanted the take from income tax to remain the same.
You want a flat rate.
We have rates of 20% (up to 49K inc PA)
40% up to 160k inc PA
45% for those earning more than 160k

If you want the take to remain the same and a flat rate then you can't just set any rate you choose, there can only be one rate.
That rate is clearly going to be well in excess of 20%, therefore everyone earning less than £49k will pay more tax.
 

AFCDorset

Season Ticket Holder
But you said above 'Evening hackney, I'll have a go at that.'
Didn't take long for you to realise that a flat rate doesn't work without the average person getting royally screwed.
Some years ago the Institute of Fiscal Studies calculated that a flat tax rate of 22% would being in the same revenue as the current system. They chose to keep personal allowances at the then current level.

Furthermore, they chose not to include any extra tax from the implementation of strict measures against avoidance or evasion as they were 'unquantifiable'.

Does not sound like anyone getting screwed to me.
 

SardiniaFox

Season Ticket Holder
You wanted the take from income tax to remain the same.
You want a flat rate.
We have rates of 20% (up to 49K inc PA)
40% up to 160k inc PA
45% for those earning more than 160k

If you want the take to remain the same and a flat rate then you can't just set any rate you choose, there can only be one rate.
That rate is clearly going to be well in excess of 20%, therefore everyone earning less than £49k will pay more tax.
Meanwhile the hidden taxes rack up.

Highest ever peacetime tax burden.
 

hackneyfox

Season Ticket Holder
How do you find a solution, if you don't know the problem?
The problem is the 'I'm alright Jack' brigade who have private health, a good pension and are happy to see everyone else pay extra taxes.
The type that are happy to see Johnson increase NI to ensure they don't lose their house as they don't pay NI.

For someone that doesn't like socialism (probably because they'll be asked to put their hand in their pocket) he's very happy for every other fucker to have to pay more.
 

SardiniaFox

Season Ticket Holder
Some years ago the Institute of Fiscal Studies calculated that a flat tax rate of 22% would being in the same revenue as the current system. They chose to keep personal allowances at the then current level.

Furthermore, they chose not to include any extra tax from the implementation of strict measures against avoidance or evasion as they were 'unquantifiable'.

Does not sound like anyone getting screwed to me.
There is no such thing as flat tax.
 

hackneyfox

Season Ticket Holder
Some years ago the Institute of Fiscal Studies calculated that a flat tax rate of 22% would being in the same revenue as the current system. They chose to keep personal allowances at the then current level.

Furthermore, they chose not to include any extra tax from the implementation of strict measures against avoidance or evasion as they were 'unquantifiable'.

Does not sound like anyone getting screwed to me.
The IFS?
They're alwys pushing for cuts for the rich and never mention inequality.

You must surely be able to see that increasing base rate tax by 2% whilst reducing it by 13% for those at the top (when 1% pay 10%) just doesn't add up.

As for implementation of strict measures against avoidance or invasion, they've extended IR35 which probably hits those in the middle harder than those at the top. They'd sooner go after those on benefits than those earning a fortune and paying very little in taxes.
 

AFCDorset

Season Ticket Holder
The problem is the 'I'm alright Jack' brigade who have private health, a good pension and are happy to see everyone else pay extra taxes.
The type that are happy to see Johnson increase NI to ensure they don't lose their house as they don't pay NI.

For someone that doesn't like socialism (probably because they'll be asked to put their hand in their pocket) he's very happy for every other fucker to have to pay more.
Sorry Hackers, but that is a real crock of shit even by your standards.

I do not have private health insurance and my pension is about £80 per week.

We have also paid the best part of £200k is care bills for Mrs AFC's mother, with most of her inheritance gone we now pay a reduced rate, still in excess of £1100 per month.

Perhaps you would like to contribute to our bills?
 

SardiniaFox

Season Ticket Holder
Sorry Hackers, but that is a real crock of shit even by your standards.

I do not have private health insurance and my pension is about £80 per week.

We have also paid the best part of £200k is care bills for Mrs AFC's mother, with most of her inheritance gone we now pay a reduced rate, still in excess of £1100 per month.

Perhaps you would like to contribute to our bills?
So obviously there is a pot somewhere otherwise you spend your income down the pub?
 

AFCDorset

Season Ticket Holder
There is no such thing as flat tax.
Stop playing with words. You know what is being discussed here.
The IFS?
They're alwys pushing for cuts for the rich and never mention inequality.

You must surely be able to see that increasing base rate tax by 2% whilst reducing it by 13% for those at the top (when 1% pay 10%) just doesn't add up.
Unlike you, the IFS can do basic sums.

Your mythical person on £25k will find that half of that is tax free as you well know. You can adjust personal allowance if you wish, plenty of scope to do that. Personally I would set the flat rate at more than 22% and increase the personal allowance, so the poor get a bit of a boost and the well off pay a little more. Real bastard me.

Naturally you make no allowance for the other half of the equation as the well off lose all their tax free perks and allowances so might well end up paying much more.
 

SardiniaFox

Season Ticket Holder
Stop playing with words. You know what is being discussed here.

Unlike you, the IFS can do basic sums.

Your mythical person on £25k will find that half of that is tax free as you well know. You can adjust personal allowance if you wish, plenty of scope to do that. Personally I would set the flat rate at more than 22% and increase the personal allowance, so the poor get a bit of a boost and the well off pay a little more. Real bastard me.

Naturally you make no allowance for the other half of the equation as the well off lose all their tax free perks and allowances so might well end up paying much more.
You are a fine one to accuse others of playing with words.

Everything is nobody's fault but someone else's.
 

AFCDorset

Season Ticket Holder
So obviously there is a pot somewhere otherwise you spend your income down the pub?
Of course there is a pot, not a very big one these days for various reasons, but it is there, it is legal and it has been accumulated from tax paid income. It is ours to do with as we wish, not to be plundered by others, any more than it has so far.
 

hackneyfox

Season Ticket Holder
Stop playing with words. You know what is being discussed here.

Unlike you, the IFS can do basic sums.

Your mythical person on £25k will find that half of that is tax free as you well know. You can adjust personal allowance if you wish, plenty of scope to do that. Personally I would set the flat rate at more than 22% and increase the personal allowance, so the poor get a bit of a boost and the well off pay a little more. Real bastard me.

Naturally you make no allowance for the other half of the equation as the well off lose all their tax free perks and allowances so might well end up paying much more.
They clearly can't, it is basic sums and what you propose doesn't add up.
Half of what someone currently pays on 25k is tax free. Even if you binned PA for those on more than 150K there still won't be the same take of income tax by increasing the rate to 22% or even higher, let's say 25% (I'm assuming you'd have been sqealing, as would we all, if the tax rate was to increase by more than that, you being a tory the party of low tax).

How does cutting tax from 45% to say 25% and messing around with PAs lead to the well off paying 'a little more'?
Your basic sums don't add up.
 
Last edited:

hackneyfox

Season Ticket Holder
Sorry Hackers, but that is a real crock of shit even by your standards.

I do not have private health insurance and my pension is about £80 per week.

We have also paid the best part of £200k is care bills for Mrs AFC's mother, with most of her inheritance gone we now pay a reduced rate, still in excess of £1100 per month.

Perhaps you would like to contribute to our bills?
I know you don’t have private health my comment wasn’t just aimed at you.
You live a nice lifestyle for someone whose pension is just £80 per week, those restaurants on THE QUAY aren’t cheap. Perhaps Mrs AFC has a larger pension pot? Not many can shop in London, have their eye on a nice car and go abroad fairly regularly (pre lockdown) without having an income somewhat in excess of the state pension.
 

AFCDorset

Season Ticket Holder
I know you don’t have private health my comment wasn’t just aimed at you.
You live a nice lifestyle for someone whose pension is just £80 per week, those restaurants on THE QUAY aren’t cheap. Perhaps Mrs AFC has a larger pension pot? Not many can shop in London, have their eye on a nice car and go abroad fairly regularly (pre lockdown) without having an income somewhat in excess of the state pension.
Like I said above, we have a 'pot' that is legal, and paid for out of tax paid income. We saved that rather than pissed it up the wall. We have taken care of our family commitments and choose to spend what is left of our money now, though recently we are struggling to do that. Restaurant on the Quay are not expensive, that is what makes the area attractive.

If we want to spend silly money we can go to Rick Steins place on Sandbanks, but we don't. We are more likely to go to local restaurants that charge local prices.

You seem to have a problem with that, why is that?

I do not own a car, Mrs AFC's little black coupé cost £12k almost 5 years ago. Most of our trips abroad were made when one or both of us were working. We have a decent life but it is not remotely extravagant.
 

SteveYork

Season Ticket Holder
The IFS?
They're alwys pushing for cuts for the rich and never mention inequality.

You must surely be able to see that increasing base rate tax by 2% whilst reducing it by 13% for those at the top (when 1% pay 10%) just doesn't add up.

As for implementation of strict measures against avoidance or invasion, they've extended IR35 which probably hits those in the middle harder than those at the top. They'd sooner go after those on benefits than those earning a fortune and paying very little in taxes.
I don't think that's the IFS Hackney, they are a pretty academic/non-partisan outfit.
 
“Subscribe
“Subscribe
Top