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Read this Mister Southgate

DagenhamFox

Blue Roofer
Lifted from the BBC article about Stokes saying it was his greatest game ever.

“The victory gives England a series success over the world champions and means they are two wins from two under new captain Stokes and coach Brendon McCullum, who have been urging the team to play with aggression, positivity and freedom.”

See what can happen when you take the shackles off?

This was achieved in two games. Interestingly, England has two games before the World Cup, Italy away in Milan and Germany at Wembley.

Makes you think doesn’t it?
 

LGFOX

Roofer
Lifted from the BBC article about Stokes saying it was his greatest game ever.

“The victory gives England a series success over the world champions and means they are two wins from two under new captain Stokes and coach Brendon McCullum, who have been urging the team to play with aggression, positivity and freedom.”

See what can happen when you take the shackles off?

This was achieved in two games. Interestingly, England has two games before the World Cup, Italy away in Milan and Germany at Wembley.

Makes you think doesn’t it?


Didn’t realise the 2 games before the WC were against those two. Two good hidings and whatever confidence we had going into the competition will have evaporated
Interestingly slabhead was defending Southgate the other day saying there’s nothing wrong with the system he plays as it’s got us to a WC SF and a EURO Final. Oh dear.
 

ClaphamFox

Roofer
Southgate has succeeded in bringing a team spirit and unity to the squad that has often been conspicuous by its absence. In the two tournaments he's managed us in, he's also settled on a clear formation and style play, albeit a very cautious one.

These modest achievements already mean he's performed better than most England managers in living memory. But they can only take you so far. To win trophies, you need to be bold and aggressive - and I just think Southgate is not psychologically equipped to do that. He also seems to have no ability to recognise that something isn't working and rectify it during the game. These are major flaws in an international coach.
 

Brusselsfox

Roofer
Interesting question is why .. despite his clear success fans have never warmed to Southgate? World Cup semi and losing Euro final on penalties should be quite a lot of credit in the bank, but he seems to have very little. Something about way he manages? Something about the man himself? Bit of both?
 

What?

Roofer
The boring football is palatable when you win, when it all goes tits up it is very frustrating and keeping possession is worth fuck all

Hungary did an old Leicester last night, let the "stars" make pointless statistics for 10 minutes then take the ball off them and score a goal

Southgate should be sacked for no wearing a tie - a clear sign his standards are slipping
 

Will Hay

Non-Member
The boring football is palatable when you win, when it all goes tits up it is very frustrating and keeping possession is worth fuck all

Hungary did an old Leicester last night, let the "stars" make pointless statistics for 10 minutes then take the ball off them and score a goal

Southgate should be sacked for no wearing a tie - a clear sign his standards are slipping
And they had a fat fucking substitute up front who held the ball up well.
 

Oadlad

Roofer
We did not lose to Italy because they showed more flair or were more adventurous but because they converted their penalties better.

I think GS and BR adopt a more rigorous planned approach to the game for the same reasons.
Both see their individual games as chapters or episodes in a wholistic tournament.
In our case it was a reaction to the absence of many first choice players resulting in a more planned approach which made it easier to include more players into an existing system. This replaced, hopefully temporarily, a more adventurous system which gave more freedom for our talented men. So the plan took precedence over flair.

GS has to adopt a planned approach as he employs a group whose parts can differ over a tournament in a club based game.
This is not confined to England.

From a spectator point of view this more rigid application of a collective, possession, pressing based, approach can be much less attractive than the individual moments of 'magic' which live in the memory. So the game comes to resemble chess rather than an athletic, physical event.
As this planned approach is now so widespread it is difficult to see a way out.
 

Brauny

Golden balls
It frustrates fans when you feel the players are playing to rigid plans which stifles their potential.

Cantona was a Man United legend because Fergie understood him and allowed him freedom. Southgate should realise what he has got, and let them express themselves.
How many good players have England had over the years, that simply look nothing like the powerful and dynamic club players they are ?

The cricket was also a great example. Same players, but with a completely different approach, and it looked like a completely different team.

Watching England under Southgate would be a good punishment in a court of law.
 

Brusselsfox

Roofer
To answer my own question. I think there are two sides to the dislike of Southgate. Part of it is that he is a ‘systems’ man .. which can lead to dull possession football. But Guardiola is also a ‘systems’ man (& Rodgers and to a lesser extent Klopp). There is more to it .. I think many people also dislike the ‘safe’ ‘corporate’ way that he comes across. Lots of fans want passion with their football and actually would prefer if the manager was a bit of a lunatic.
 

veuveclicquot

Non-Member
To answer my own question. I think there are two sides to the dislike of Southgate. Part of it is that he is a ‘systems’ man .. which can lead to dull possession football. But Guardiola is also a ‘systems’ man (& Rodgers and to a lesser extent Klopp). There is more to it .. I think many people also dislike the ‘safe’ ‘corporate’ way that he comes across. Lots of fans want passion with their football and actually would prefer if the manager was a bit of a lunatic.
In that case they should appoint Ollie, or even Sven.
 
Football is supposed to be about passion and excitement. Football without emotion is pointless
This is why we were all attracted to the game in the first place and continue turning up. Triumph and disaster but not deluded tippy tappy, go nowhere whitewash.
As everything becomes frighteningly more expensive fans will have some major choices to make (particularly those with children) and if the entertainment factor is missing then they will be too.
 

Oadlad

Roofer
That's right but as I said there seems no other way at the moment.
I'm glad someone thinks there are a mob of flair players in England whose talents are being overlooked by a manager's rigid plans.
There aren't. He is forced to select players already limited by similar tactics every week.
His teams simply reflect his cautious approach and In many ways England will never get a more appropriate man
because collective caution is designed to limit individual flair, something coaches are wary of in a results driven game.
It is designed to allow for dips in form, which the more creative player is subject to.
 

Brauny

Golden balls
I'm glad someone thinks there are a mob of flair players in England whose talents are being overlooked by a manager's rigid plans.
There aren't. He is forced to select players already limited by similar tactics every week.
His teams simply reflect his cautious approach and In many ways England will never get a more appropriate man

Seeing that's a little dig at my comment can you answer this question ?

Is Southgate responsible or not for England's lack of creativity ?
 

Oadlad

Roofer
I thought I did. See the bit about players already victims of the systemic nature in clubs.
Really creative players will add that to systems but we lack them. GS cannot whistle them up in a couple of prematch days.
And I don't do 'little digs' just express opinions...
 

courtslcfc

Non-Member
Doesn't help the fact they chose Wolves to host the matches.

Dour people, dour atmosphere, dour surroundings.

What's the worst that could happen.
 

Brauny

Golden balls
I thought I did. See the bit about players already victims of the systemic nature in clubs.
Really creative players will add that to systems but we lack them. GS cannot whistle them up in a couple of prematch days.
And I don't do 'little digs' just express opinions...

I do see players playing for their clubs, and with a lot more enterprise than they are under Southgate. It's always happened, players reduced to pale shadows of the ones that turn up every week for their clubs.
I believe we have got good skillful players, who are restrained by the managers tactics.
Raheem Sterling has the ability to be a right handful, yet last night he had caught the Southgate disease.
I don't buy into us not having the players, we do, but we have had a lifetime of mainly dull boring managers who inflict their personality on the team.
Still think England can be at the top table, if the FA stopped selecting managers who look good and tick boxes.
 

Oadlad

Roofer
Maybe you are right.
Incidentally, Southgate was picked on his outstanding work with the U23s not because of his waistcoat.
I would like to know who you think would do a job which unlocks this well of talent of yours but
I suspect that at the moment the real problem is the workloads being demanded of our top players.
And GS's personality (or lack of) is unable to raise them from this.
On a personal level I was enjoying the two rugby play off semis so much I forgot the England match.
Says it all really...
 

Filbo24

Non-Member
I really don't get this workload /tired bollocks,surely the German,Italian and Hungarian players have had similar if not the same workloads or does it only affect English players,
 

DagenhamFox

Blue Roofer
Doesn't help the fact they chose Wolves to host the matches.

Dour people, dour atmosphere, dour surroundings.

What's the worst that could happen.
Except people travel to watch the game it’s not just full of locals.

I thought it would be a better atmosphere being at a club ground, and one with a safe standing home end too.

Wales now play more often at Cardiff City’s ground for this very reason.

Clearly it didn’t work for us.
 

Brauny

Golden balls
I really don't get this workload /tired bollocks,surely the German,Italian and Hungarian players have had similar if not the same workloads or does it only affect English players,

It's probably not so much the quantity of games, but more the intensity of those games. No league as got such competitiveness from top to bottom.
 

Oadlad

Roofer
The relative match loads of different leagues is something worth exploring.
We know that the top level competition in England is much more fierce than most countries.
But many of the best players from those other countries play here too.
I know international managers value those from the elite clubs because of them constantly playing
deep in top competitions but maybe that is the problem as well.
I bet Hungary players are not tested every week like England players but if you play a high line
with defenders without pace then you will still be in trouble....
 

Brauny

Golden balls
Maybe you are right.
Incidentally, Southgate was picked on his outstanding work with the U23s not because of his waistcoat.
I would like to know who you think would do a job which unlocks this well of talent of yours but
I suspect that at the moment the real problem is the workloads being demanded of our top players.
And GS's personality (or lack of) is unable to raise them from this.
On a personal level I was enjoying the two rugby play off semis so much I forgot the England match.
Says it all really...


Frankly I couldn't care if it was the man from Mars, so long as they get them ticking.
Manager to replace him ?
Won't happen, but I'd sooner have Stevie G than GS.
 

TopFox

Non-Member
To answer my own question. I think there are two sides to the dislike of Southgate. Part of it is that he is a ‘systems’ man .. which can lead to dull possession football. But Guardiola is also a ‘systems’ man (& Rodgers and to a lesser extent Klopp). There is more to it .. I think many people also dislike the ‘safe’ ‘corporate’ way that he comes across. Lots of fans want passion with their football and actually would prefer if the manager was a bit of a lunatic.
Coming out with bollocks like he did the other day about how awful the term WAGs is probably don't help
 
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