Play-off final Hamburg vs. Hertha BSC Berlin 2nd leg

buz_not_buzz said:
[...] of a lot of people's feelings in this country re:Everton this season (i.e. an impression that Hamburg were arrogant & felt entitled despite being appallingly managed as a club & having done very little of note for a number of decades).
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My impression as well! It had been coming for them for years if not decades!

Hertha's situation is not too dissimilar though, at least that's the impression I get.

In fact, that ties to the point I've tried to make in the thread on RB Leipzig: it's often the traditional clubs with a long history and a large support that get away with poor club management, self-serving directors and years of fleecing their own supporters because they can almost 100% rely on a loyal fanbase that turns up at the gates no matter what. "New" and "corporate clubs" such as Leverkusen, Leipzig or Hoffenheim can't do that: they don't have a massive fanbase, and if they aren't reasonably well-managed, they throw a bad light on the funding company itself, and they eventually improve and prevail (in most cases, anyway).

In my opinion it's often the former that commit the larger "crimes" (i.e. rip off their own fanbase in particular) but it's mostly the latter that attract most of the vitriol.
 
A few more impressions and anecdotes from Hertha BSC Berlin over the past few years:

1) Mid-2019, they got a new investor (Lars Windhorst. a wealthy German businessman). He has since pumped 375M€ into the club, so far not to great avail. For whatever reason, he's not on the board himself but only bought shares. It seems though, the club has more or less spent it all and are still running a massive annual deficit (between 20M€ and 70M€ each year).

2) End of 2019, Windhorst tried to implement Jürgen Klinsmann as an advisory board member. Only a few weeks later, Klinsmann was also made the manager of the side. A mere 11 weeks after his initial appointment, Klinsmann walked out, practically over night!! Afterwards, he wrote a scathing 22-page document on his experience, bemoaning a "thorough lack of professionalism at all levels", a "culture of lies" and so on.
Whilst Klinsmann's behaviour itself leaves a lot to be desired (leaving one's employer in the lurch over night and pouring a lot of scorn on them the way he did afterwards will probably mean nobody will ever employ him again), there is certainly some truth in what he said.

3) Felix Magath, who just saved them from relegation, chose more diplomatic words after he left but he also complained that he literally had no support from within the club, and that everybody within the club was pulling in different directions. Not sure whether he was offered the job beyond this season but he may have declined politely. The future manager certainly will have his work cut out with what appears a poisoned chalice of a job!

4) The club had a rather tumultuous AGM over the weekend. Their president of 14 years resigned just a week or so prior to the AGM, and the members tried to vote out most of the remaining board members. They didn't succeed as they didn't get the required 75% share of the vote against, but the interim president resigned during the meeting after >60% voted against him! Since most the other board members were not voted out, the club is still functional but only just! In June, they're meant to elect a new president!

To cut a long story short, Hertha BSC is one of probably quite a few traditional clubs that is very poorly run, burn through huge amounts of money and achieve very little in return.

I guess the same or similar conditions apply to Hamburg (any many other clubs in many countries).
 
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swabianfox said:
[...]
4) [Hertha BSC] had a rather tumultuous AGM over the weekend. Their president of 14 years resigned just a week or so prior to the AGM, and the members tried to vote out most of the remaining board members. They didn't succeed [...]! Since most the other board members were not voted out, the club is still functional but only just! In June, they're meant to elect a new president!
[...]
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Turns out the outsider (a former Hertha BSC Ultra) won the presidential election!

It's a win for the romantics within the club and the fanbase who effectively gave the club "establishment" a two-fingered salute!!

Having said that, the new guy has got his work cut out! Years of disarray and mismanagement have the club reeling a bit, and the biggest task will probably be how to get people to pull in the same direction again. It'll be interesting how this turns out for the "alte Dame" ("the old lady", as the club is affectionately called sometimes).
 
They’re over here doing pre-season at St George’s Park for 2 weeks. Friendlies against Derby & West Brom. Typically, my son, who was born in Berlin, is working so we won’t be going to support them. ☹️🤬
 
Whitwickfox said:
They’re over here doing pre-season at St George’s Park for 2 weeks. Friendlies against Derby & West Brom. Typically, my son, who was born in Berlin, is working so we won’t be going to support them. ☹️🤬
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Out of interest why did you choose Herta instead of Union? From what I see about Union they seem to be a club for the people.
 
DagenhamFox said:
Out of interest why did you choose Herta instead of Union? From what I see about Union they seem to be a club for the people.
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I was stationed in Berlin during the Cold War times and lived right next to the Olypiastadion. Hertha was the West Berlin team. Union were in the East at the time. Somewhere I was definitely not allowed to go...even for several years after the wall came down!!
 
Whitwickfox said:
I was stationed in Berlin during the Cold War times and lived right next to the Olypiastadion. Hertha was the West Berlin team. Union were in the East at the time. Somewhere I was definitely not allowed to go...even for several years after the wall came down!!
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Fair enough then Whitwick!! And fair play to you.
 
Whitwickfox said:
They’re over here doing pre-season at St George’s Park for 2 weeks. Friendlies against Derby & West Brom. Typically, my son, who was born in Berlin, is working so we won’t be going to support them. ☹️🤬
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They play three. Derby on Saturday 16th, Forest on 20th at 7pm and West Brom on 23rd.
 
One year later, and badly run Hertha BSC Berlin are getting relegated after all! They will finish bottom of the Bundesliga.

Hamburger SV who lost the play-off last year are currently in third place (2. Bundesliga) with one point behind Heidenheim in second place and one game still left to play. Another play-off for them is already guaranteed, and they could still go up directly if they overtake Heidenheim on the last day.

The rest of the Bundesliga relegation battle looks very tight. The most likely candidates to go down are Stuttgart (currently playing at 32 points), Schalke (31) and Bochum (32) but Augsburg (34) isn't fully safe either. One of them goes down directly, and the other is facing the 3rd placed team from 2. Bundesliga in a play-off.

Darmstadt are currently topping 2. Bundesliga on 67 points and will go up. Hamburg (63) is facing Sandhausen (A) on the last day who are already relegated. Heidenheim (64) are playing Regensburg (A) who are also practically relegated.
 
swabianfox said:
Those of you who follow German football a bit shall be reminded that tonight there is the second leg of a play-off between those two teams for the last Bundesliga slot in the coming season.

As a reminder, each year the team who comes 16th in the Bundesliga has to enter a two-legged play-off against whoever comes third in the 2. Bundesliga for the final Bundesliga slot.

This year, Hertha BSC came 16th in the Bundesliga, and Hamburger SV came third in the 2. Bundesliga. Both are old and traditional clubs with a big following and a long history.

Hamburg (6x German champions) was for quite some the only founding member of the Bundesliga that never got relegated (affectionately called 'Dino') but, due to poor management and a steady decline on the pitch, they finally dropped to 2. Bundesliga in 2018. They have since failed to get promoted again (they came 4th three seasons in a row!!), and this might be their chance tonight since they won the first leg in Berlin 1-0!!

Hertha BSC, on the other hand, are also a very big club with a big following who play in the Olympiastadion in Berlin but, despite their size and the size of the city they have largely been perennial underachievers, often fluctuating between the first and second tier. They don't have many titles to their name, at least not recently (two German championships in 1930 and 31), and I only vaguely remember a couple of German Cup finals in the 70s and a single CL appearance maybe 15 years ago. Relegation, nonetheless, would be a catastrophy, not only financially but also due to the fact this would also confirm their drop to no. 2 in Berlin behind Union Berlin from Köpenick who have now firmly established themselves in the top tier, have a legendary and extremely loyal fanbase and are managed very well!!

There is additional spice in the tie since the current Hertha BSC manager, Felix Magath, is a Hamburg legend and former long-term midfield general, scoring also the only goal in their 1-0 and only European Cup victory against Juventus Turin in 1983.

As I said, Hamburg won the first leg in Berlin 1-0. It's theirs to lose now but a lot is at stake tonight!!
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Is it same as how the Scottish leagues do it? Never really understood the principle of it.
 
courtslcfc said:
Is it same as how the Scottish leagues do it? Never really understood the principle of it.
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To be honest, I don't know how the Scottish leagues work! In Germany, it's relatively simple though:
[...], each year the team who comes 16th in the Bundesliga has to enter a two-legged play-off against whoever comes third in the 2. Bundesliga for the final Bundesliga slot.
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This means, two 1. Bundesliga teams always go down (17th/18th), and two always go up from the 2. Bundesliga (1st/2nd).

If the 1. Bundesliga team (16th) wins the play-off, they stay up, if they lose they go down and are being replaced by the 2. Bundesliga team (3rd).
 
The Bundesliga is the most exciting league in Europe this season. Loads of issues to be decided on the final weekend, including the title. I watched Dortmund this afternoon, they had thousands of fans at Augsburg & it all seems like football used to be in this country before it was sanitised.
I have been to league matches in quite a few European countries, but never Germany. I must rectify that
 
Yeah, it looks like Dortmund could win the title this season! They have to win the last game but apart from that, it's in their hands!

Bayern Munich have won the title ten times in a row. The last different team to win it were ... Dortmund in 2012!! Under Klopp, if memory serves me right!
 
Hamburg are 3-0 down to Stuttgart after the first leg, the second game is in Hamburg on Monday night.

After Sheffield Wednesday turned it round after a 4-0 loss at Peterborough I’m not going to say Hamburg are out of it, but it’s not looking great for their chances of a return for next season.
 
Whitwickfox said:
I was stationed in Berlin during the Cold War times and lived right next to the Olypiastadion. Hertha was the West Berlin team. Union were in the East at the time. Somewhere I was definitely not allowed to go...even for several years after the wall came down!!
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Bit like Whitwick and Thringstone then
 
DagenhamFox said:
Hamburg are 3-0 down to Stuttgart after the first leg, the second game is in Hamburg on Monday night.
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It might be bittersweet for Hamburg once again! On the last day of the league, they were promoted after 90 minutes but in another game Heidenheim scored two goals in stoppage time, turned a defeat into a victory and ended the day at the top of the league. Hamburg dropped to third as a consequence, and here they are, staring another season in 2. Bundesliga in the face.

There are a lot of former Bundesliga champions in 2. Bundesliga now: Kaiserslautern, Nuremburg, Braunschweig and Hamburg/Stuttgart. Hannover, Karlsruhe, Kiel, Fürth, Schalke and Hertha are also former German champions, albeit (long) before the Bundesliga introduction in 1963. And Magdeburg and Rostock are former East German champions.
 
On a cycling trip on the German Danube a couple of weekends ago we happened to wheel into the lovely City of Ulm at about 11:30 on Saturday morning. Outside the magnificent town hall I almost rode into what appeared at first sight to be a large group of half pissed Notts County supporters (lots of overweight middle aged men and socially awkward teenagers in black and white shirts). Turned out the local team SSV Ulm 1846 needed a win that afternoon to finish top of the South West regional league and be promoted to the national Liga 3. They managed a few derisory songs but most seemed happy to take selfies with their flags and enjoy a beer in the sun before the ‘big match’. Sad to say I didn’t hang around for the football but I believe they won. Anyway it seemed a very happy and jolly occasion for everyone involved. Just goes to show there is a lot more to German football than the Bundesliga.
 
SSV Ulm 1846 seems to have got promoted indeed!

They did play in the Bundesliga for a single season back in the 90s or early 2000s if I recall correctly but finished that season very poorly and then hit hard times, including going bust several times. They dropped to the fifth tier at their lowest point. Since then, they've basically languished between the 4th and 5th tier, so promotion to the 3rd tier is a success for them and perhaps a sign of better things to come.

I recall them often fluctuating between the 2nd and 3rd tier in the 80s and 90s. I spent a lot of time in Ulm at my grandma's in the 80s so I remember that time well.

Their stadium isn't too bad it seems. Sits 19,000. Not sure how many they fetch on average these days.
 
I know it’s a little off piste, but I’ve just started reading ‘beyond the wall’ by Katja Hoyer about life in East Germany. Fascinating.
 
The Swabians won the game 3-1 in stoppage time and 6-1 on aggregate. They stay up while Hamburg is facing another season in 2. Bundesliga.

Not sure what this means for next season. Stuttgart seems a long way away from past glory with three Bundesliga titles. They changed the head coach at least twice this season, and I'm not sure if the setup of the club has improved lately. Hamburg seems to have stabilised a bit and might have another go at promotion next season.
 
The 1. Bundesliga teams generally do seem to have the upper hand in the play-offs against the teams from 2. Bundesliga.

They had play-offs between 1982 and 1991, during which time the 1. Bundesliga teams won seven, and 2. Bundesliga teams only won three play-offs.

They reintroduced the play-offs again in 2009, and since then, the 1. Bundesliga teams won 12, and 2. Bundesliga teams only won three play-offs.

There have been play-offs also between the 2. and 3. Bundesliga, and, a bit surprisingly, the teams from the lower league seem to have the upper hand there. They won ten (most likely 11 as the current play-off is not complete yet but the first leg finished 4-0 to Wehen from 3. Bundesliga), and teams from the 2. Bundesliga only won four play-offs.
 
swabianfox said:
The 1. Bundesliga teams generally do seem to have the upper hand in the play-offs against the teams from 2. Bundesliga.

They had play-offs between 1982 and 1991, during which time the 1. Bundesliga teams won seven, and 2. Bundesliga teams only won three play-offs.

They reintroduced the play-offs again in 2009, and since then, the 1. Bundesliga teams won 12, and 2. Bundesliga teams only won three play-offs.

There have been play-offs also between the 2. and 3. Bundesliga, and, a bit surprisingly, the teams from the lower league seem to have the upper hand there. They won ten (most likely 11 as the current play-off is not complete yet but the first leg finished 4-0 to Wehen from 3. Bundesliga), and teams from the 2. Bundesliga only won four play-offs.
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The most infamous one in recent times was that of Union Berlin being promoted from Bundesliga 2 for the first time in 2019. Just two years later they qualified for the Europa Conference followed by the Europa league a year later. They’ve now just qualified for the CL by coming 4th in the Bundesliga whilst their bigger rivals Hertha were relegated. Quite a meteoritic rise unlike us.
 
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