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Foxgolfer

Roofer
I find that modern education, from schools through further education and on to main stream media is developing generations of closed minds.

It has become important to conform to the 'narrative', be it political, social or economic, it doesn't matter. As long as it is in line with 'common purpose' thinking that is fine, outliers, people who think a little differently, make up their own minds and express different views are ostracised and ridiculed, if they are in public life they are 'cancelled', banned from social media and sometimes worse.

Mostly, pre lockdown, I used to let this idiocy wash over me without much thought, if I met such a person I would be polite, not engage and, down the line, avoid like the plague. no problem.

Now however the opportunity to display your idiocy has been ramped up to unheard of heights by the governments 'measures', strangely, people who hate the tories, call them far right, nazis even, are the first to fall over themselves trying to implement their every diktat, wear a mask, get the vaccine etc, etc.

People seeming to believe all this crap from politicians that they profess to hate, whilst helping the same politicians systematically dismantle the social and economic structure of this country in preparation for a future that will not be good for ordinary people.
The purpose of a good education is to be able to weigh up empirical evidence , encourage curiosity and be flexible in your thinking .Be prepared to change your mind if the facts change.
The development of a national curriculum , has I agree, to an extent stifled some creativity and the drive to “””teach to the test” and only value what can be measured, has had a detrimental effect, particularly on 4-16 .
Where I take issue with your post is in the implication that every source for the bedrock of enquiry is valid .It isn’t . “ Alternative facts “ are not facts unless they have a basis in reality .
The blurring of the line between fact and opinion is dangerous and perfectly illustrated by the mob that , believing Trump’s “alternative facts “ ( lies ) formed the opinion the election had been stolen, and now people are dead and lives are ruined . . The failure, to a large extent was one of education .
For me Vaccine scepticism , climate change denial and holocaust denial are all a failure in education . Lazy thinking prompted by a reliance on opinions formed by superficial and unreliable sources.
 

AFCDorset

Roofer
So many people on here profess to have an "open mind", yet they are fixed in their views.

None of us really know what is going on...
That is very true, but of course quite unimportant.

What is important, is that it is someone else's fault, this allows them to sit around and complain without actually doing anything.
 

Adumass

Bentleys Roofer
What is important, is that it is someone else's fault, this allows them to sit around and complain without actually doing anything.

i don't think you can ever accuse this "generation of closed minds" of sitting around complaining and doing nothing. they are out on the streets all the time, whether its BLM, the climate, exam gradings, etc etc - they are more active than any generation i've previously lived through.

in fact you could argue its you old guys, with your open enquiring minds (whilst repeating identical mantra's) that are the ones sat at home complaining (about biden mostly), but not doing anything about it.

:)
 

Foxgolfer

Roofer
BLM bring a perfect illustration . Not accepting what Dorset described as “ conforming to the narrative “ .
Visits to National Trust houses were more interesting this summer as already the basis of the obscene wealth behind many of them was clearer .
( Not advocating tearing them down by the way / just interested in Historical facts becoming clearer )
 

AFCDorset

Roofer
The purpose of a good education is to be able to weigh up empirical evidence , encourage curiosity and be flexible in your thinking .Be prepared to change your mind if the facts change.
The development of a national curriculum , has I agree, to an extent stifled some creativity and the drive to “””teach to the test” and only value what can be measured, has had a detrimental effect, particularly on 4-16 .
Where I take issue with your post is in the implication that every source for the bedrock of enquiry is valid .It isn’t . “ Alternative facts “ are not facts unless they have a basis in reality .
The blurring of the line between fact and opinion is dangerous and perfectly illustrated by the mob that , believing Trump’s “alternative facts “ ( lies ) formed the opinion the election had been stolen, and now people are dead and lives are ruined . . The failure, to a large extent was one of education .
For me Vaccine scepticism , climate change denial and holocaust denial are all a failure in education . Lazy thinking prompted by a reliance on opinions formed by superficial and unreliable sources.
Remarkably sensible and measured post Foxgolfer. Thank you for that, I pretty much agree with every word.

Where I disagree of course is in the evaluation of what are facts and what are not.

This is particularly a problem in social issues. It is my contention that modern education is driven by the politics of 'common purpose' which emphasise left wing attitudes in all things, though that in itself is only a small part of the problem.

For me the big problem is the pressure to conform to 'common purpose' views. The left wing techniques of 'no platforming' people with different views, 'canceling' peoples lives and careers, the shear pressure to conform.

Calling out people with different views is to me abhorrent, I try not to do it but occasionally the stupidity levels are so extreme that I am sorely tempted.

To put it simply, people evaluate what they see going on and interpret it. The trick is to come to conclusions about the world as it is, not as your preferred political dogma wishes it to be.
 

sixthswan

Non-Member
That is very true, but of course quite unimportant.

What is important, is that it is someone else's fault, this allows them to sit around and complain without actually doing anything.

A good point.

We all spout crap on this message board and take sides, with our clearly open minds - each with their own enemy, be it Trump or Biden (just for example).

Who among us is doing anything about it?

Reading literature from any sources and then sharing and arguing about it means fuck all. It's just keyboard warfare.

We are all guilty of seeking out information, that confirms our view of the world. A version of open-mindedness which seeks to enclose our entrenched viewpoint. None of us are truly open-minded.

Dark forces rule our world. You don't know what they are. If you have found something that confirms their existence, then you haven't found it. Because you never would. It wouldn't be on the internet...though I might be being closed-minded about that.
 

AFCDorset

Roofer
BLM bring a perfect illustration . Not accepting what Dorset described as “ conforming to the narrative “ .
Visits to National Trust houses were more interesting this summer as already the basis of the obscene wealth behind many of them was clearer .
( Not advocating tearing them down by the way / just interested in Historical facts becoming clearer )
Seen from your viewpoint I can see why you would say that.

As someone who fought against National Front skinheads on the streets of Southall, Brixton and the East End I can clearly state that my political views were altered irrevocably by the experience.

What started out as a simple movement, mostly spontaneous, to oppose the overt racism of the National Front was rapidly turned into a nasty anti-capitalist, smash the police mob by groups like Socialist Worker. Black Lives matter, which should have universal appeal has started from from the anti-capitalist, smash the police position, in the US it is moving even further towards violence and anarchy. I find them impossible to support.

Your views on the National Trust are also hugely revealing,
 

AFCDorset

Roofer
A good point.

We all spout crap on this message board and take sides, with our clearly open minds - each with their own enemy, be it Trump or Biden (just for example).

Who among us is doing anything about it?

Reading literature from any sources and then sharing and arguing about it means fuck all. It's just keyboard warfare.

We are all guilty of seeking out information, that confirms our view of the world. A version of open-mindedness which seeks to enclose our entrenched viewpoint. None of us are truly open-minded.

Dark forces rule our world. You don't know what they are. If you have found something that confirms their existence, then you haven't found it. Because you never would. It wouldn't be on the internet...though I might be being closed-minded about that.
Indeed. I have in the past stood up on the streets and fought for what I believe to be right, From Grosvenor Square as a callow teen, through the race riots detailed elsewhere on this thread, anti Iraq war, to pro-Brexit marches. Admittedly I was only a part time 'foot soldier' but it just seemed right at the time.

OK, that's enough 'virtue signalling', from me.
 

Foxgolfer

Roofer
My views on the NT are that it’s been interesting to find out more about the real history behind the wealth creation which built many of the properties . What is “hugely revealing” or controversial about that ?
They are still fascinating insights into the past of our country and it’s political and social history.
One of the most ridiculous things I heard this year was the execrable Anne Widdicombe testing up her membership card in case she learnt something which might upset her . That is true ignorance.
 

AFCDorset

Roofer
I am not remotely suggesting that the real history is unimportant, we need to 'own it', learn from it and accept it.

However this was not the case on visits to NT properties that we made in the last few years (since retiring and moving down here we do that sort of stuff). There was no balance, no information about the good uses the properties were put to, the craftsmen and the workers that put years of their lives into the project, the effect on the local communities,

Commentaries and guides were, in my view, very one sided, tedious and taught me nothing. I cancelled our membership.
 

sixthswan

Non-Member
We are where we are, because of our history.

The English language is a product of invasion and assimilation. Created on the fair streets of old Leicester town.

Keep our history, to remind us of the past. Well at least the version of history, that the victors wrote...
 

hackneyfox

Roofer
Black Lives matter, which should have universal appeal has started from from the anti-capitalist, smash the police position, in the US it is moving even further towards violence and anarchy. I find them impossible to support.

Your views on the National Trust are also hugely revealing,
BLM support Defund The Police rather than ‘smash the police’ Two completely different things.
 

sixthswan

Non-Member
I'd prefer to repurpose the police, rather than defund.

The police need to become more community focused.

Damage in communities and damaged communities, are at the heart of almost all crime.

Too much focus has been applied to centralisation, cost-cutting and traffic-related income streams.

Kick Masonry out of the police forces too.
 

hackneyfox

Roofer
I'd prefer to repurpose the police, rather than defund.

The police need to become more community focused.

Damage in communities and damaged communities, are at the heart of almost all crime.

Too much focus has been applied to centralisation, cost-cutting and traffic-related income streams.

Kick Masonry out of the police forces too.
Isn’t that was Defund is all about?
Reduce plod budgets and give those funds to social services like housing, education, youth and mental health care. Doesn’t stop plod from doing their basic duties just means they aren’t expected to deal with social problems that should be outside their remit. NYC spends $6b on policing which is more than the combined spend on health, homelessness, youth and community services.

Think some people thought Defund meant stopping all spending on policing hence the daft comments about BLM protesters who needed police protection.
 

sixthswan

Non-Member
I'm not advocating reducing their budgets though.

I'd fund them more and give them more to do in the community. I'd also increase funding in other community aspects as well.

The future will be less corporate and more local, in physical assets.
 
The police need to become more community focused.

Damage in communities and damaged communities, are at the heart of almost all crime.

Too much focus has been applied to centralisation, cost-cutting and traffic-related income streams.

Kick Masonry out of the police forces too.
It's not just the police austerity has led to massive cuts. The Youth Service is practically non-existent, Sure Start centres were closed, Local Govt have had huge cuts so reductions in social workers, libraries closing etc...
 

bnet

Roofer
 
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