Hearing that the Arizona recount has finished

Leavers never suggested it would be easy, well not that I heard.

We did however, expect the government to try.
Try how? There was nothing that said what leave meant. There are the hard Brexiters who are still saying they don't care if we don't get a deal without knowing what that will mean for UK trade. All because of immigration.

The typical arrogance of the "we hold all the cards" and "easiest deals in history" was fodder for the flag shaggers.

The reality is now kicking in that this is a massive self-inflicted mess.
 
The problem a lot of leavers have is, they think there's always a simple solution to a complicated problem.
This is what happens when things are dumbed down.
Anybody who has been divorced can tell you just separating two people is a pain in the arris, never mind 1 country from 27.
I think something similar applies across other fields too, i.e. people believe (or profess to believe) that something is clear and simple, when it clearly isn't. That can lead down the road of believing that it is being made complicated by [insert particular bugbear here] trying to obstruct or divert things. It seems to me that people are worried or discomfited by complexity and thus want to reduce things to simple elements, rather than acknowledging that the world is complicated and we're better employed in accepting and understanding that.
 
Try how? There was nothing that said what leave meant. There are the hard Brexiters who are still saying they don't care if we don't get a deal without knowing what that will mean for UK trade. All because of immigration.

The typical arrogance of the "we hold all the cards" and "easiest deals in history" was fodder for the flag shaggers.

The reality is now kicking in that this is a massive self-inflicted mess.
It was clear as day. Leave means Leave.

Enact Article 50 after the ref, leave late 2018.

Get on with building the country, outside the EU trade block if necessary.

The overwhelmingly pro EU 'uk state' was determined never to let that happen.

I think something similar applies across other fields too, i.e. people believe (or profess to believe) that something is clear and simple, when it clearly isn't. That can lead down the road of believing that it is being made complicated by [insert particular bugbear here] trying to obstruct or divert things. It seems to me that people are worried or discomfited by complexity and thus want to reduce things to simple elements, rather than acknowledging that the world is complicated and we're better employed in accepting and understanding that.
The decision to leave the EU was a simple matter of principle.

The Cameron government lied to us about 'Implementing our decision whatever it may be', they had no intention of doing so as they never expected to loose.
 
It was clear as day. Leave means Leave.

Enact Article 50 after the ref, leave late 2018.

Get on with building the country, outside the EU trade block if necessary.

The overwhelmingly pro EU 'uk state' was determined never to let that happen.


The decision to leave the EU was a simple matter of principle.

The Cameron government lied to us about 'Implementing our decision whatever it may be', they had no intention of doing so as they never expected to loose.
So just leave our largest trading partner with no deals. Then go back after we've left and try to negotiate favourable deals and expect to not pay tariffs or be charged tariffs on out exports to them? So basically walk off out of the club but go back cap in hand afterwards and just ask for the best bits but not contribute anything?
 
Yes they did. All are on record as such.
So just leave our largest trading partner with no deals. Then go back after we've left and try to negotiate favourable deals and expect to not pay tariffs or be charged tariffs on out exports to them? So basically walk off out of the club but go back cap in hand afterwards and just ask for the best bits but not contribute anything?

Not that I recall. There was always an appreciation that this would be a difficult process, serious people on both sides of the debate made that clear
However there was a rather foolish assumption made by the people, that the government would keep it's word and take us out, setting up a mutually beneficial trading relationship with the EU wherever possible, and cracking on under WTO rules where it was not.

The principle really is that simple.
 
Not that I recall. There was always an appreciation that this would be a difficult process, serious people on both sides of the debate made that clear
However there was a rather foolish assumption made by the people, that the government would keep it's word and take us out, setting up a mutually beneficial trading relationship with the EU wherever possible, and cracking on under WTO rules where it was not.

The principle really is that simple.
So you missed the likes of Gove, Farage, etc saying it was the easiest thing to do.
 
No country works under WTO rules alone, everyone has major agreements in place, except us.
Not my understanding of our position (we have specific trade deals with more than 20 non EU countries) but need to replace those deals with countries that lapse should we ever leave, best get on with it.

So you missed the likes of Gove, Farage, etc saying it was the easiest thing to do.
I remember them telling us that we were in a very strong position to set up mutually advantageous trade deals with the EU.

Sadly we have, as far as I can see, made no effort, to set up such deals.
 
Not my understanding of our position (we have specific trade deals with more than 20 non EU countries) but need to replace those deals with countries that lapse should we ever leave, best get on with it.


I remember them telling us that we were in a very strong position to set up mutually advantageous trade deals with the EU.

Sadly we have, as far as I can see, made no effort, to set up such deals.
The quote from Farage was "For me, leaving is easy".

And Madagascar is the only nation to rely on WTO rules.
 
The quote from Farage was "For me, leaving is easy".

And Madagascar is the only nation to rely on WTO rules.
For me too.

The thing is for many leavers, (obviously I can not speak for all) it is easy.

The 'principle' of getting out of the EU is overwhelmingly important, everything else comes second.

It's separate. Principle > > Agreement. Not agreeing (on trade terms say) does not over rule the Principle.
 
Not my understanding of our position (we have specific trade deals with more than 20 non EU countries) but need to replace those deals with countries that lapse should we ever leave, best get on with it.


I remember them telling us that we were in a very strong position to set up mutually advantageous trade deals with the EU.

Sadly we have, as far as I can see, made no effort, to set up such deals.
Oh come on AFC, I'm always interested in your alternative view on things but it's common knowledge we were told it would be easy.
Talk of oven ready deals etc. The leavers, in the main, didn't have s clue what the due process was/ is and while folk can argue whether that was right or not it doesn't matter. Leave won the vote on a straight ticket. Leave. Which is what we should do if we live in a democratic country. But to suggest leavers knew it would be hard etc is nonsense
 
Oh come on AFC, I'm always interested in your alternative view on things but it's common knowledge we were told it would be easy.
Talk of oven ready deals etc. The leavers, in the main, didn't have s clue what the due process was/ is and while folk can argue whether that was right or not it doesn't matter. Leave won the vote on a straight ticket. Leave. Which is what we should do if we live in a democratic country. But to suggest leavers knew it would be hard etc is nonsense
A couple of things.

Firstly there is the issue of Principle, for me and for many others, this is the crux of the issue, over rules everything else, the process comes next and is separate.

Then, all the politicians lied during the campaign, Cameron promising to implement the result whatever it was, easily the biggest lie of them all.

As I have said before, I think we could have come out of this very well in due course, but that would have required a government to negotiate in the best interests of this country. Never happened of course.

I do except that I made one, really big error. I believed the Prime Minister of this country when he told us the basics, Leave means Leave and that he would implement the result of the referendum. He lied, which fucked everything.
 
Principle does not override getting the best deal possible. That's just reckless and selfish.
Not to me, just the opposite in fact.

I am genuinely surprised that you would say that.

As I have said before, I think we could have come out of this very well in due course, but that would have required a government to negotiate in the best interests of this country. Never happened of course.
Couple of contrary statement there AFC, one minute it's principle before best deal possible then you expect them to to negotiate in the best interests of the country.
How many cakes do you want?
 
Couple of contrary statement there AFC, one minute it's principle before best deal possible then you expect them to to negotiate in the best interests of the country.
How many cakes do you want?
Just the one.

Issue Article 50 straight after a the referendum. Set a leaving date, ideally late 2018. Ask the EU how it wants to do business after that date.

A linear process, one decision follows another.

The choice was Leave or Remain. We've left. You won, get over it.
We still have not left yet.

Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.
Cheeky but cool... ;)

I am normally a very pragmatic person but this is important to me in a way that few other 'political' points are.
 
Just the one.

Issue Article 50 straight after a the referendum. Set a leaving date, ideally late 2018. Ask the EU how it wants to do business after that date.

A linear process, one decision follows another.


We still have not left yet.


Cheeky but cool... ;)

I am normally a very pragmatic person but this is important to me in a way that few other 'political' points are.
All well and good.
North of Ireland?
 
Open border.

Pre arrange customs paperwork for goods in transit and check on the ferries.

Anyone takes the piss, tackle it locally. If the EU don't like it, let them put up a border.
It's illegal and we put it up.
 
Just the one.

Issue Article 50 straight after a the referendum. Set a leaving date, ideally late 2018. Ask the EU how it wants to do business after that date.

A linear process, one decision follows another.


We still have not left yet.


Cheeky but cool... ;)

I am normally a very pragmatic person but this is important to me in a way that few other 'political' points are.
You wanted to leave in 2018, go under WTO rules and then ask the EU how they wanted to do business?
 
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