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Brexit implementation

Mistryman

Bill Poster
That is very true.

What surprises me most is that the contempt shown to the British by the EU was so self evident that anyone, irrespective of their political persuasion, would even think of staying in.

There are two distinct issues in play here. Getting out of the EU is one thing, preparing for later relations is quite another.

Many Brexiteers, like me, consider that we are not out of the EU. Put simply, the EU still has control over some of our affairs, so by my reckoning we are not actually out.

But more importantly the government wasted 4+ years in the hope that something would happen so that they could somehow cancel the whole thing and stay in. Most retainers and almost the entire government/civil service cabal wanted that too.

Which brings us to where we are today, stuck with possibly the worst possible outcome.
In the midsts of a decent conversation, even you’ve resorted to playing the blame game! I’d say that the British have shown as much contempt for the EU by their behaviour too, by their lack of preparation & their subsequent clarion call of “It’s the EU’s fault”.

It’s also notable in the media that our govt’s behaviour is explained away by us “sticking it to them” - if anyone thought that the EU would simply roll over because “we’re British & that’s it!”, they need to give their head a wobble.

IMHO, I don’t think the lack of action by the govt can explain any desire of theirs to get Brexit cancelled - I genuinely believe that they simply used it as a vote-winner to say they would “deliver Brexit”, & then buoyed by Johnson’s usual boisterous nature to say lots but do very little, couldn’t be bothered to do the actual leg-work for it, thinking that they could bluff the EU & get them to blink first.
 

AFCDorset

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In the midsts of a decent conversation, even you’ve resorted to playing the blame game! I’d say that the British have shown as much contempt for the EU by their behaviour too, by their lack of preparation & their subsequent clarion call of “It’s the EU’s fault”.

It’s also notable in the media that our govt’s behaviour is explained away by us “sticking it to them” - if anyone thought that the EU would simply roll over because “we’re British & that’s it!”, they need to give their head a wobble.

IMHO, I don’t think the lack of action by the govt can explain any desire of theirs to get Brexit cancelled - I genuinely believe that they simply used it as a vote-winner to say they would “deliver Brexit”, & then buoyed by Johnson’s usual boisterous nature to say lots but do very little, couldn’t be bothered to do the actual leg-work for it, thinking that they could bluff the EU & get them to blink first.
I very much hope that is not true.

In the first instance, Cameron, who was clearly in trouble in terms of domestic politics, asked for some concessions that he could use to strengthen his position. In what I consider a deliberate show of distain, the EU agreed to a conference, then with Cameron in Brussels, made it clear that would do nothing to help, they knew that this would humiliate Cameron, which it did.

Post referendum I have no argument with the EU whatsoever, they had two guiding principles, keep the UK in the EU, or if that was not possible, make the leaving process as difficult as possible to keep other wavering EU states in line.

The cock ups that have left us in our current disarray were entirely the work of the dreadful May and now Johnson government.

No sensible person and certainly no Brexiteer of my acquaintance expected the EU to 'roll over'.
 

SardiniaFox

Bill Poster
I very much hope that is not true.

In the first instance, Cameron, who was clearly in trouble in terms of domestic politics, asked for some concessions that he could use to strengthen his position. In what I consider a deliberate show of distain, the EU agreed to a conference, then with Cameron in Brussels, made it clear that would do nothing to help, they knew that this would humiliate Cameron, which it did.

Post referendum I have no argument with the EU whatsoever, they had two guiding principles, keep the UK in the EU, or if that was not possible, make the leaving process as difficult as possible to keep other wavering EU states in line.

The cock ups that have left us in our current disarray were entirely the work of the dreadful May and now Johnson government.

No sensible person and certainly no Brexiteer of my acquaintance expected the EU to 'roll over'.
Other than keeping Sterling, the Veto and the Rebate, what concessions did you want?
 

HughJanus

Subscribed
Almost anything would have been enough to tip the balance for Cameron the EU misjudged the British belligerence and tipped the balance in favour of the Brexit camp
 

AFCDorset

Subscribed
Other than keeping Sterling, the Veto and the Rebate, what concessions did you want?
Almost anything would have been enough to tip the balance for Cameron the EU misjudged the British belligerence and tipped the balance in favour of the Brexit camp
This pretty much SF.

It may not have taken very much, a few small concessions, no idea of the details but something that Cameron could sell as the EU being reasonable. Hard brexiteers would not have budged but it may have swung enough votes to remain to make the difference.
 

SardiniaFox

Bill Poster
This pretty much SF.

It may not have taken very much, a few small concessions, no idea of the details but something that Cameron could sell as the EU being reasonable. Hard brexiteers would not have budged but it may have swung enough votes to remain to make the difference.
The details matter.

Immigration controls as an example were more lax in the UK at the time than the rest of the EU.

Personally I suspect many voted leave at the time to put one over the perceived position of the establishment.
 

Filbo65

Thatched roofer
Or maybe those with any sort of memory might have recalled that Labour refused to hold the public vote on the Lisbon Treaty before it was imposed in 2009, that they had promised at the 2007 election? Hence 2016 was the first time for decades that anyone in the UK had been allowed to have any say whatsoever on the constantly evolving grand european project.
There's a revealing (albeit long) William Hague speech somewhere on YouTube from that time, which I suspect highlights quite well some of the roots of many people's objection to the EU. As you say, the details matter to many.
 

AFCDorset

Subscribed
Politics are all about the perception. If Cameron had 'something' to present to the voters, he could have made it sound positive and constructive and, perhaps have swung the referendum.

The perception, rightly or wrongly, was that Cameron was treated with distain and this sat badly with a lot of voters, that is my recollection of how it was at the time.
 

Lonesome Crow

King of the lurkers.
Actually Lonesome that is not true. There is nothing to say that one way or another, it is one of the classic 'fudges' of the 'unwritten' British Constitution.

Stupid though this sounds in 2021, back in 2016, many people, myself included, thought that, on matters of principle, we could actually trust the words of the democratically elected British Prime Minister. We couldn't.

What i was trying to say (all be it not too well) is that you can't have a referendum where the result is binding if one side wins
but not binding if the other side wins, as some on here seem to think.
 

AFCDorset

Subscribed
What i was trying to say (all be it not too well) is that you can't have a referendum where the result is binding if one side wins
but not binding if the other side wins, as some on here seem to think.
Course you can Lonesome, you just have to be a socialist...😉

More important than logic, fairness or consistency.
 

Mistryman

Bill Poster
What i was trying to say (all be it not too well) is that you can't have a referendum where the result is binding if one side wins
but not binding if the other side wins, as some on here seem to think.
Any discussion about it being ‘binding’ is pretty much irrelevant because it depends on whether significant change is meant to occur because of the result.

So we remain, & life pretty much carries on as before.

So we leave...well, it’s not the same as remain is it, as we have seen over the last 4.5 years?!

See also my earlier comment about what Frottage said before the referendum.
 

SardiniaFox

Bill Poster
Politics are all about the perception. If Cameron had 'something' to present to the voters, he could have made it sound positive and constructive and, perhaps have swung the referendum.

The perception, rightly or wrongly, was that Cameron was treated with distain and this sat badly with a lot of voters, that is my recollection of how it was at the time.
Is how the Express and Mail sold it.
 

AFCDorset

Subscribed
Any discussion about it being ‘binding’ is pretty much irrelevant because it depends on whether significant change is meant to occur because of the result.

So we remain, & life pretty much carries on as before.

So we leave...well, it’s not the same as remain is it, as we have seen over the last 4.5 years?!

See also my earlier comment about what Frottage said before the referendum.
Indeed it does MM, for the simple reason that we have not actually left!

The EU still has control over aspects of UK life and we are still paying them for the privilege.

The country is in a serious mess over this, nothing to do with Brexiteers, everything to do with the pro EU globalists that riddle this government and UK public services in general.

Is how the Express and Mail sold it.
You may be right SF, I can't remember. Something convinced a lot of uncommitted voters to vote leave at the last moment, remain were expected to win and I went to bed on the night at about 2:00 am convinced that they had.
 

Filbo65

Thatched roofer
Really? At 2am?
Amongst the first results, there were several from the north-east that supported the late polls which had suggested leave could win. By around 1am as I recall, it was very much looking that way. It was all over by about half four...
 

Filbo65

Thatched roofer
I never go to bed early now, after doing so when watching the pundits confidently declare "I'm calling it for President Kerry" just a few hours before Dubya won his second term :)
 

hackneyfox

Subscribed
Really? At 2am?
Amongst the first results, there were several from the north-east that supported the late polls which had suggested leave could win. By around 1am as I recall, it was very much looking that way. It was all over by about half four...
We went to bed fairly soon after the results from a couple of cities started coming in, if Remain couldn't get big gains in votes there then it was all over.
 

AFCDorset

Subscribed
I can clearly recall Nigel Farage, conceding defeat to remain and a you gov poll giving remain a 52 - 48% margin of victory after the polls had closed, this was the narrative for the early part of the night.

I went to bed towards 2:00 am, telling Mrs AFC that remain were on course for victory. David Dimbleby did not call the result for leave until 4:40 am.
 

Filbo65

Thatched roofer
Wow – I was ten minutes out on when it was all done and dusted. Sorry ;)
We obviously remember the night differently. Fair enough – I can't be arsed to argue about it.
But if you're sad enough, you can seemingly relive the whole ten hours on YouTube... :ROFLMAO:
 

AFCDorset

Subscribed
Wow – I was ten minutes out on when it was all done and dusted. Sorry ;)
We obviously remember the night differently. Fair enough – I can't be arsed to argue about it.
But if you're sad enough, you can seemingly relive the whole ten hours on YouTube... :ROFLMAO:
I was watching the BBC, at that time I still considered them to be an honest broadcaster...🤔

Maybe it was just the BBC but their emphasis was on the you-gov poll, that predicted remain win and Farage's statement. Other 'unofficial' Polls that suggested otherwise were not prominent on the BBC. I was a strong Brexit supporter but went to bed (I thought I was quite late, but perhaps not) convinced that remain would win. That I remember quite clearly.

Getting up at 7:00 am to discover otherwise really made my day, I was very excited, I remember that too.
 

Mistryman

Bill Poster
The country is in a serious mess over this, nothing to do with Brexiteers, everything to do with the pro EU globalists that riddle this government and UK public services in general.
You’re giving that govt far too much credit for having the brains to think the process through in such a calculated way -
I was watching the BBC, at that time I still considered them to be an honest broadcaster...🤔

Maybe it was just the BBC but their emphasis was on the you-gov poll, that predicted remain win and Farage's statement. Other 'unofficial' Polls that suggested otherwise were not prominent on the BBC. I was a strong Brexit supporter but went to bed (I thought I was quite late, but perhaps not) convinced that remain would win. That I remember quite clearly.

Getting up at 7:00 am to discover otherwise really made my day, I was very excited, I remember that too.
If you only knew that the feeling you had about the Brexit referendum result at 7am that morning was about as good as it was going to get, & all those Leave voters had essentially left things in the hands of a UK govt that didn’t have a clue.
 

AFCDorset

Subscribed
You’re giving that govt far too much credit for having the brains to think the process through in such a calculated way -

If you only knew that the feeling you had about the Brexit referendum result at 7am that morning was about as good as it was going to get, & all those Leave voters had essentially left things in the hands of a UK govt that didn’t have a clue.
Morning MM, lovely morning here on the south coast.

Regarding the government, I do not think there was much 'thinking' involved, they are 'hard wired' pro-EU career politicians, nasty little shits in other words.

Quite right about that morning being 'as good as it was going to get'. I have said this many times before, I actually took the Britsh Prime Minister at his word, 'implementing the decision of the referendum' and 'out means out'.

Quite ridiculously stupid in retrospect, but at the time I really did not believe that the democratically elected leader of this country could lie so blatantly. His resignation, later that day should have set off warning bells.
 
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